Couple of build questions

Roll cages? Do you feel like every car benefits, or just some or just think they are dumb and add weight. In real life I THINK the help create a more rigid car and that MIGHT aid in handling. But again, I think it might be more related to each individual car. Maybe??? What do you all think?

Also, I’ve been confused about the rear diffs for a while and something dawned on me. Is the 2nd choice were its says 2 way, is that basically posi and best left for drag cars? And is the 1.5 way like a limited slip? I don’t understand and maybe it’s says so in the game. I have this problem that the font of some of the written stuff is really small in my game and I guess I’m getting old because I can’t barely read half of the stuff. And my TV isn’t ginormous. So… I’ll try to look better at it today. But thought maybe you all could explain it better anyways. For a while now I’ve just been leaving my rear diffs stock, because I wasn’t sure what the benefit to the upgrades were. Maybe someone can explain it better.

Thank you!!!

Hey Man, Roll cages definitely help the handling thru rigidity…it worth the weight.

The diff I can’t explain exactly the difference, but in the game, and in real life, it’ll allow you change the numbers on your final drive, which will help in your ability to accelerate fast, or gear for top-end speed. It’s worth doin…sometimes your tune can gain time on track by changing the final drive a few points, to whatever might suit the track. Sometimes you need acceleration out of a lot of corners, and sometimes you’ll have long sweeping curves and/or long straights. That’s just a simple explanation…hope that helps a little.

The diff only helps to tune your acceleration and deceleration, and you should always put on the race differential. Always! Final drive is about the gearbox. Sport gearbox lets you play with the final drive only and race boxes let you play with all the gears.

As for cages, I don’t normally use them unless it’s apparent that for the car in question that it helps. Normally I save the weight and can try and tune out any deficiencies, unless it doesn’t add too much weight in which case I bolt it on no problem, or if it doesn’t use up too much PI.

I knew that the sport gearbox lets you adjust final drive. I’ve been doing that for a bit now. I don’t do it that often, but sometimes. One time offline I raced a C3 Corvette at LeMans and it helped to lower the final drive on that course. And then if you ever want to run the GT40MKII on any other course it’s good to raise them those gears are so low. LOL. What I don’t know I’m assuming the race gearbox does the same, eh? I don’t barely ever put the race gearbox on. I have one on the C1 Corvette because of it only having two gears originally. But haven’t messed with the final drive.

What’s strange about all that tough, is that in real life, it IS the differential gears that change the final drive. I guess unless it’s a FWD car. So I guess for simplicity their not changing that aspect between FWD and RWD cars.

I don’t really understand how to adjust the “acceleration” and “deceleration” on the diff gears though. I’m sure it’s self explanatory but for some reason I can’t get my head around “Deceleration”. And if you change one, wouldn’t it change the other? Like if you put the Acceleration up to 80%, wouldn’t it HAVE to change the deceleration??? I’m confused about the actual mechanics about it.

And why wouldn’t they give an option for posi if they do drag? I read the descriptions yesterday and it’s obvious that for some reason each is a level up in performance. I just don’t really get why, and if there is a real world application. I don’t really know rear end gears all that well, other than that I remember it used to be the hot thing if you had 4/11 gears for dragging. I think it lets you lay down the torque better with less slippage. And the stock Nova’s had like 2.92. Probably for good gas mileage. Which probably also made them a little more touchy to get going in first gear. LOL. But you would think the taller gears would be lousy for top speed. Especially if you only had a 4 speed. Or worse yet, a 3 speed automatic.

Anyways… If someone feels like explaining it more in depth, I’m all ears.

Hey GroovierWolf,

Differentials are most definitely an ALWAYS, as HMR Motorhead put it. Never build a car without one. Oh, and in most cases, they usually drop the PI one point (bonus!).

To help you better understand differentials, I thought I’d offer a couple of pages first before throwing some info your way (and the bonus is that I can explain the mechanical aspects of it all for you). For starters, here’s an excellent video on the basic principles of a differential, it’s purpose, and how it works; Around The Corner - How Differential Steering Works (1937) - YouTube. After watching that, here’s a good page with explanations and decent pics; http://www.carbibles.com/transmission_bible_pg3.html#.

The element to best using a race differential is in using the most torque you can–and your differential controls the “most” factor (think of it as a constantly fluctuating, or dynamic, variable). Torque is what moves your car so you want as much of it as possible. The problem is that there will always be situations during racing where there can be too much torque, and the race differential will serve as a mechanical device to aid in having more control and/or prevention for such situations.

If you view the picture of the open differential from the carbibles webpage I provided above, this is your typical differential arrangement for all drive types (AWD cars have two differentials). This means that when you adjust your final drive, you’re adjusting the ratio of rotations between the ring gear and the pinion gear (there are two ring gears in AWD cars–one in each differential; your final drive setting for AWD cars is applied to BOTH ring gears). In effect, the setting in-game is actually how many revolutions the pinion gear makes for every one revolution of the ring gear.

When you increase the ratio, or setting, you increase the acceleration because your causing the tires to undergo more revolutions as the RPMs rise. The opposite effect occurs when you reduce the setting–that is, the acceleration decreases, and the tires spin at a slower rate. The change in your acceleration is BECAUSE of the change in the number of revolutions the tire is making per any given RPM(s).

Now if you view the picture of the limited slip differential, you’ll see that a simple addition of clutchpacks between the drive pinions is the only difference. When you’re adjusting the differential in the game, you’re effectively changing the physical arrangement of the clutchpacks in the differential–you’re either adding more clutches to the “pack” or taking some clutches out. The more clutches you add, the more resistance you create, and thus the more friction your torque has to overcome to get the tires to spin. This is used to dampen the delivery of torque from acceleration (on-throttle) and deceleration (off-throttle momentum/inertia). Just food for thought, these are typically used in OEM applications for certain AWD vehicles equipped with limited slip differentials.

The major difference in a race differential however is not depicted in the picture. The captive gears, which are held in place by the vertical rod (or pinion shaft) you see in the top of the spider-gear cage (the spider gears are the captive and drive pinion gears), instead are allowed to move because the housing has pressure rings within it, each of which have cuts that allow the pinion shaft to either move backwards, away from the input pinion gear (which occurs on-throttle), or towards the input pinion gear (which occurs off throttle). The angle of the cuts will affect the amount of pressure that occurs and therefore how much resistance there is. Here’s a video of somebody explaining it in full detail; 1 Way - 2 Way - 1.5 Way LSD - Explained - YouTube. The pictures he’s drawn are actually pretty good visual representations of the physical component.

The effectiveness of all this is in the angle of the cuts. The more angle they have, the more pressure the pinion shaft can create against the clutchpack, and vice versa. When you change the settings on your differential, you’re also changing the angle of these cuts in addition to the clutchpacks themselves. It’s worth noting that questioning which of the two factors (that is, the angles and the clutchpacks) has more or less effect or change when changing the settings is moot–the laws of physics make it possible for more than one balance to create the same level of differential performance.

For tuning purposes, the first thing you’ll want to know is that the higher the setting is (whether accel or decel), the more clutchpacks (and thus resistance) and/or pressure ring angle you’re adding; this effectively means that in increasing the settings you’re creating more resistance to wheelspin, and in decreasing the setting you’re reducing the resistance to wheelspin. Because of the effect of the differential allowing the inner and outer tires to rotate at different speeds, however, you’re also reducing the amount of difference there is in rotations between the inner and outer tires.

For an effective example of this, imagine a set of tank treads. In order to turn the tank, one tread most travel faster than the other; the same effect occurs when your car is turning. Now in order for the tank to travel in a straight line, the treads must travel at the same rate; the same effect occurs when your car is driving in a straight line. The difference however is that your car’s differential will be FORCED to lock once you straighten the car out. If this happens at a time when/where your handling will not maintain grip once it locks, you’re car will be prone to losing grip.

For your accel setting, you want it adjusted to an area that will aid in straightening the car out so much so that you are able to plant more power much sooner, via more throttle, upon corner exit. For your decel settings, you want the differential to open up just enough to plant whatever torque and/or momentum is moving the car until you get back on throttle; too little can cause the affected tires to want to hold more of a straight line (which can most definitely cause tires to break loose), and too much can cause the tires to want to spin more than necessary which will contribute to excess torque (which can also most definitely cause tires to break loose). Also worth noting is that the effective setting range for race differentials differs for each drivetrain type (if you want drivetrain specific elaborations, just ask).

I apologize if it’s long-winded; I tried at my best for brevity.

Cheers, and happy tuning!

I read the whole thing and can I just say thank you very much for taking the time to explain that. My cursory knowledge of rear end gears allowed me to already know the pinion and ring gear ration and what they do. I’ve seen them before, I understand that. What I had no clue about is all this clutch pack stuff and adjusting resistance. I had no idea. I think I gather from what you’re telling me, this is not a typical thing for a run of the mill car. But you’re saying AWD cars usually have this adjustability? Either way I had never heard of all this until now and I’m guessing it is more akin to performance and race cars than your typical car. I’ve never myself had done any work to any rear end, but I’ve seen them open before in either real life and pictures or tv shows.

So… I will review the links and the explanation is very understandable. I have no clue how to tune knowing this though. LOL. How do you know if the rear end gears or maybe tweaking the camber or roll bar setttings is the right input for a “loose” car. It’s so complicated.

Right now I’m focusing on cars that I have built up for racing in a Trans Am series with a member on here. And his specs just uses sport brakes, shocks and roll bars, so there’s no need to adjust them. That at least simplifies things for me, as I’m rather new to the game. But he does allow the sport rear end which has some adjustment. I’m just totally afraid to play with it. LOL. I think I adjusted by Datsun 510 acceleration numbers up a little.

The final drive gears I totally get. I’ve already played with some to a degree to know how that’s working. Sometimes a car can top out with stock gears on some longer straights and lowering the gears helps with that. Although it makes the lower gears change relation to shift points on track corners too, and I keep that in mind. If I’m saying that right. Last night I was watching an old Overhaulin and this guy had a 67 Camaro that had some performance parts on from the factory and they said the gears that were in their were 4:10’s. Seems like you’d be revving real high on the freeway. But good for laying the torque down I guess.

The video and write up helped a lot. The video helped more. I didn’t understand how the ring gear attached to two free flowing axles until that video. That makes sense.

In a limited slip or posi rear end, do those clutch packs were out if they are spring loaded? Seems like over time, the taking of corners would lesson the spring tension. I’m sure they are heavy duty springs, but all springs were out, eh?

So in the game, is the 1.5 a limited slip? I’m still not understanding the major difference between the 1.5 and 2. Is the 2 a torsion sensing system?

GW3: This doesn’t answer your question really, but its another, more modern explanation, including Final Drive explanation. It applies directly to this game, when changing FD. I can’t tell you what 1.5 and 2.0 differences are, but maybe someone can. I just know that this subject is misunderstood by many, and not explained (at least correctly) by many either. How a Differential Works and Types of Differentials - YouTube its a short 4 min video. Turn this link on to others that you run across that may need some help understanding this concept.

Thank you!!! I don’t know why I had a brain fart and used the word (were) for “wear”. Obviously I meant “wear out”. Not were out. LOL.

Hey GroovierWolf3,

The essence to tuning the differential is actually more simple than you think, but that’s once you start to understand everything that’s going on at once, and as you said already, it’s complicated. But before we get to that, let’s first make sure you understand the component more in depth (as it’s essential to understanding how to tune it).

For starters, there are no springs in a clutchpack differential. And for all intents and purposes I would say that none of the race differentials in FM4 are Torsen differentials (I say this because the in-game telemetry allows us gamers to actually see the differential locking up); Torsen differentials are designed specifically for the purpose of NEVER locking up (Quaife established themselves with a very strong presence when they developed and released their Torsion based ATB differential).

I’ve posted it before, but here’s one of the links again of a guy explaining the three different types of differentials; 1 Way - 2 Way - 1.5 Way LSD - Explained - YouTube. The only reason I’ve posted this link is for the purpose of understanding what the pressure rings are and how they work; that is, that the pinion shaft is allowed to move either forward or backward to some degree. To what degree, however, is determined by whether the differential is a 1-way, 1.5-way, or 2-way.

That’s why I’ve tracked this photo down; http://www.billzilla.org/lsdoptions.jpg. Here you can effectively see the differences between the three types and the pressure rings they bear. The difference in the angle of the pressure rings is what allows the pinion shaft to travel more or less, thus applying more or less pressure to the clutchpacks. All of this is a byproduct of engineering via applying the laws of physics.

In the 1-way differential you can see that pressure is applied when you’re on the throttle, but not during deceleration; this is why you cannot adjust the deceleration setting on a 1-way differential.

In the 1.5-way differential pressure is again applied under acceleration, but unlike the 1-way there’s now a lesser, proportional amount applied under deceleration; this is why (if I’m not mistaken) your deceleration setting automatically adjusts itself to your acceleration setting–it’s maintaining that mathematical proportion.

In a 2-way differential, however, you have the same amount of pressure applied under both loads–acceleration and deceleration. This means that you have full control over both settings.

In regards to how to tune it, I’m going to apologize for length right now–explaining a differential is MUCH easier to do (and much faster) over a headset than in a forum.

First, which one to use? A 1-way is going to be good for drag, and possibly drift. It will cause the differential to lock under throttle–a good thing for drag and drift–but will not entirely lock under deceleration; for drag this is moot–you don’t need to decelerate–but for drifting, a differential that slips out of being locked under deceleration may be a bad thing for certain drifters (it depends on the style of drifting; some use this to temporarily regain control before inducing oversteer again, much like others use the clutch and handbrake to do the same).

A 1.5-way is typically good for circuit racing and can be used for drag (again, deceleration is entirely moot as long as it locks under acceleration), but often times is useless for drifting. Because of the design of a 1.5-way differential, it’ll usually provide more grip under deceleration because the differential hardly locks up; this is critical because the inside and outside tires must travel different distances, which means the outside tire must spin faster (like in that first Youtube video I posted for you). If the inside and outside tires MUST travel different distances, the differential must NOT be locked for optimal grip. If it is locked during cornering, your inside or outside tire will spin more or less than it is supposed to depending on which tire is locked to the other. If the inner tire is locked to the outer tire it will spin faster than it needs to for the turn, thus causing oversteer; if the outside tire is locked to the inside tire the outside will not spin as fast as it needs to for the turn, thus causing understeer and/or wheel skid/hop.

A 2-way is usually ideal for drifting, as you can effectively get the tires to lock under both acceleration and deceleration, but can also be effective for circuit tuning for those who know how to create balance between both loads. With a 2-way differential, you have total control over when your differential unlocks (corner entry) and locks (corner exit). If you think of tank treads, like I mentioned before, creating a certain ratio between between the inner and outer treads, or tires in your car’s case, will create a specific turning angle. If the angle produced by your control over your car doesn’t match the turning angle induced by the differential’s settings, your car will feel unstable until both angles become one again (or close enough to one). A 2-way differential is sort of unique in that it gives you control over both your corner entry angles and corner exit angles (to a certain degree–it will have its limitations in that it won’t turn the car for you), which is something neither a 1-way or 1.5-way can do. The downside to this, however, is that it can require intense amounts of time spent trying to find a perfect (or even suitable) balance between both acceleration and deceleration when using a 2-way on certain cars.

When you choose your differential, you’ll first have to decide what kind of control you want–just corner exit (in which case you’ll use a 1-way or 1.5-way) or both exit and entry (in which case you’ll want a 2-way). Also remember that a higher setting means more clutchpacks, and therefor more resistance to wheelspin and rotational speed differences between the inside and outside tires; this means that the higher your setting, the more the driving tires affected will want to drive in a straight line, and the lower the setting, the less it will want to drive in a straight line and the more inclined the car will be to turn.

When adjusting for corner exit (this is your acceleration setting; it only applies when you’re using the throttle), you want the differential to lock as you get the car to straighten out. This is harder than it sounds however, because the nature of a turn determines how quickly or slowly the diff needs to lock on corner exit (your throttle input as you apply it can affect how quick or slow it locks too). The broader a turn is (as in obtuse angles, i.e. large sweeping corners, etc.), the more time will be spent straightening the car out; therefore, the differential will have to lock more slowly. The tighter a turn is (as in acute angles, i.e. hairpins, etc.), the faster the differential will need to lock. Your settings will have to be a balance between what is required for the most obtuse turn angle and most acute angle of turn for the track you’re tuning for. In other words, the tightest turn in the track determines how “closed” your differential can be while the broadest turn in the track determines how “open” your differential can be. You don’t want your differential more closed or open than necessary.

When it is more open than necessary, the tires altogether will attempt to make turns sharper or faster than necessary. While this can be beneficial to slight degrees, too much will contribute to enough loss of grip to negatively impact your lap times. Beyond using the telemetry system to watch replays in slow motion, you can monitor for insufficient resistance (or too low of a setting) by watching for excessive wheelspin on the outer tires which may or may not cause the car to want to continue turning rather than straightening out (which sometimes can require a corner-exit steering over-correction). The effect of this, however, will vary between car class, drivetrain type, and wheelbase.

When it is more closed than necessary, the tires altogether will attempt to maintain more of a straight line rather than turning, resulting in turning responses that are either sluggish or turns that result in sharp and sudden losses of traction on the inside tire; it’ll depend on which tire is not spinning at the proper rotational speed. With excessive resistance (or too high of a setting) one of two things will happen; either the inside tire will spin too fast, or the outside tire won’t spin fast enough. When the inside tire spins too fast, the inside tire will lose grip usually in a very sudden manner causing the outer tire to usually lose grip very suddenly too (this is VERY common for RWD cars). When the outside tire doesn’t spin enough, on the other hand, it will slowly lose it’s grip and usually causes the inside tire to lose grip too, though the loss of grip is much more gradual (this can be very common for FWD cars).

It’s worth noting that I’ve had to, in many, many, many, many, many cases, run a car for a five lap race by myself just to save the replay and watch it back in slow motion so that I could actually see which tire was losing grip first and why. Don’t be too surprised or frustrated if you find yourself having to do the same.

When adjusting for corner entry (this is your deceleration setting; this only applies when decelerating while in gear), you want the differential to open up, or unlock, as you turn in towards the apex, presumably at the same rate at which you’re turning the car. This can be even trickier than setting your deceleration setting because your differential will change states as you downshift; each shift of the gears will render the car in neutral for a temporary amount of time which allows the pinion shaft to slightly move. This effect can be troublesome at times during trail braking if the settings aren’t optimal because the movement of the pinion shaft may allow for a change in the transfer of torque rendering the clutches in the clutch pack unresponsive.

When you have too low of a setting the differential will be allowed to unlock itself too soon, allowing the torque to differentiate itself on the inside and outside tires too early which can have a negative impact if you’re weight has started to transition at this point. Once the weight transitions to the outside, the inside tire has less weight on it to maintain grip, so if it’s delivered too much torque too soon, it can become unstable or maybe even lose it’s grip as you near the apex of your turn.

When you have a setting too high, however, the differential won’t open soon enough and will cause the car to deviate from your steering input at a rather steady rate. This will either be perceived as a gross amount of understeer, or can cause the car to snap loose. This is because the car will continue to want to drive in a straight line (this is your understeer, and occurs when grip is maintained), or will attempt to drive in a straight line until transitional weight allows the lighter tire to begin slipping (this is the “snap loose” effect, caused by the weight transitioning just enough that the tire can slip suddenly and push the other tire beyond its grip).

This is as far as I can go for now, but I’m willing to elaborate more if you would like me to or need me to. I hope that all of this helps, and again I apologize for the length.

Cheers!

After reading all that, it makes me just want to use a regular diff w/o any adjustments. LOL. I kind of get it, but it’s not all there yet. I understand the mechanics, I’m not quite sure how to apply the changing of the settings for a desired output yet. But it’s not because you didn’t explain it well. I’ll have to read and reread and reread and then go futz and see if I can’t tell a difference.

Let’s face it, we’re limited to the game’s coding. In terms of Forza, explaining differential tuning is pretty easy. The sliding scales we’re given- left (low numerical value) is “open differential” and right (high numerical value) is “locked differential.” Open is what some gearheads call a one-legger. Open differentials go around a corner more easily, locked differentials are more effective at transferring power to the road. Tune to your driving style and to suit the track.

In one video I saw the presenter referring to the sliders as “on throttle” and “on brake.” It’s really just “on throttle” and “off throttle” as it’s possible to be “on throttle” and “on brake” simultaneously. In some instances [corners] this is a preferred method.

1-way: Forza fixes the acceleration setting, Forza fixes the deceleration setting to zero.
1.5-way: You can adjust the acceleration setting, Forza sets the deceleration setting to 1/2 your chosen acceleration value.
2-way: You can set both.

Equip a 2-way in Forza and you can replicate a 1-way or a 1.5-way since you’re able to adjust the sliders. While perusing I saw mention of a welded differential; buy a 2-way differential, set both acceleration and deceleration to 100, drive car.

GroovierWolf, what you said at the very end is key. I implore everyone, “go futz and see if [they] can’t tell a difference.” Experimentation is what it’s all about.

Thank you sir. That helps.

I posted a question about the u2 beemer on the other forum. And I did it here too. I apologize if I seem like a dunce about the stuff. I’ve only been playing for 2 months. And probably a slow learner sometimes.

Anyways…