Is it really that difficult to run manual? I mean to the extent that you want it to shift just as fast as a decent M/C shift? If that were to become the case, Horizon would become the arcade-iest game of all time. Why not just remove manual and manual with clutch altogether? That would make everyone run automatic. Heck, scratch that, just remove both manual shifting modes but don’t change anything about automatic and force everyone to run slow-shifting automatic. Fair is fair? I think not, lol.
All three shifting modes are available from game start in every title in the franchise. There are different modes to encourage competition. I personally haven’t noticed the “hardcoded handicap” in automatic. But what I can tell you is that manual mode shifts WAYYY slower than the same car and transmission but additionally using the clutch. In my mind, that all makes sense. Now, I’m not entirely sure what you mean by “handicap”, but if it’s the automatic shift time and low-rev point, it doesn’t need to be removed. It’s always been that way and, although I do agree somewhat with increasing shift times in select cars, I think the shift times are better left untouched.
Drive a 2017 Raptor or GT and tell me that they have slow automatic shift times. Yes, they do shift relatively early on in the tach range, but that’s because automatic transmissions on most cars NORMALLY try to keep away from redline as often as possible. Redlining isn’t good for any engine (rotaries might be an exception to some extent and depending on how you look at it) and thus, it can stay as is for all I care. I’ll just keep running manual with clutch without handicaps, lol.
I run manual with clutch in every Forza game everywhere. In Motorsport, on every track, in every challenge, etc. In Horizon, in races, drifting, during online cruises… lol, it’s not that difficult. Yes, it takes time to learn and be able to run it flawlessly, but like I said earlier, practice makes perfect. It sucked when I first started out. I was horrible at it, missing shifts here and there, but just like everyone else did when they started learning it.
Look my previous post, does it look like that i cant drive with manual? And now when you say like that, no i dont want shift as fast automatic than with manual with clutch i want it actually be faster. Arcade? No, it’s actually opposite is more realistic that way, best auto gearbox change gear in 8ms you cant even blink your eyes that fast. Or do you thing that is realistic than when using senna you are 0,5s faster per lap when using manual w/clutch against automatic with car that dont even have clutch pedal in real life. And there is cars where that difference is even more bigger (and also cars/tunes where that difference is not that big)
It leaves those with a disability at a disadvantage of not being able to use Manual or Manual with Clutch. Many cars in the last decade have some sort of performance/sport modes take the car to redline for shifting or adjust to your pedal inputs. There are special controllers that can help, but aren’t cheap.
I really think the solution is simple - make auto/manual/manual-clutch all the same performance.
Make payout/perks/influence higher for Manual and even higher for Manual-Clutch. (more than it is now)
No one needs to have a performance bonus for Manual with Clutch - I use it because I enjoy the immersion of shifting and because of the payout anyway.
It is unfortunate that someone who is disabled may miss out on the payout (there is really no way for them to balance that) but at least you’d have a fairer shake at racing equality.
Maybe I’m just accustomed and so used to using M/C all the time, I tried automatic, manual, with clutch then back over several times in the past few hours and haven’t noticed a severe handicap between the three. Granted, the performance/efficiency cuts are there as longer shift times and lower rev shifting, but I guess we’ll have to wait and see what happens. It’s either that or play a different game, and I don’t plan on doing that any time soon.
The only other workaround I can think of is drivetrain swaps. Swapping a RWD or AWD drivetrain into any car sets the shift time to nearly the best in the game. Slap on the race clutch and swap in a race trans and you’re golden. If you care enough about retaining the original drivetrain characteristics, say an AWD swap in an originally FWD car, set the diff to send all the power to just the front axle. The only con to this method is the increased weight and jacked distribution from the original drivetrain (on most cars, anyway).
Even with all these possible workarounds, compromises will have to be made in all of them.
Because outside of new transmissions it’s absolutely not?
Why should any difficulty settings make a car faster?
Why not just put all the aids on then? We can just all hammer the throttle, brakes, and steering, and FH4 can drive the car for us!
We can add autopilot while we’re at it.
For when you want to race, but don’t think you should “have to”.
Dont forget that in old forza games we actually have autopilot (hire driver option). And traction control and stability control actually make you slower in real life also just like in game so i dont see any problems there. Old automatic gearboxes are slower than manual but in forza this goes also in new cars where automatic is faster in real life, i wouldnt mind if difference would be small like 0,1s per lap but when you are 0,5s or even more faster by using manual that dont sound balanced and it’s even more unbalanced when you get big speed bonus in straights by using manual what make nosense espicialy in new cars.
No automatic transmission ever built knows that 3rd gear will work better for the upcoming corner than 2nd gear.
And generally speaking, automatics that are “faster” than their manual counterparts have extra gears, and typically, STILL gain performance by manual override.
So no, the only case for making autos equal to manual is to make the game easier.
I’m not going to debate how incredibly lazy it is to refuse to push a single button to shift. Let alone to be so lazy and then actually complain on the internet that they should give a handicap because someone doesn’t feel like shifting.
There’s a reason the F40 didn’t come with an automatic, and it isn’t because automatic was just too fast.
Cars with really good automatics, like Ferrari’s,(they’re both auto and manual in one) are faster than a manual in every Forza I’ve played, and real life. (FH1-4 and FM5-7)
Maybe not in a drag race, but over a race.
Ferraris’s works pretty well even when use automatic, i run most modern ferraris yesterday with automatic and manual (with elite controller using back pedals) and every single one was faster with manual. And biggest difference was actually totally stock fxx k as i was 0,3s faster with manual all others difference was 0,1-0,2s per lap. That kinda difference would be totally fine but when there are modern cars where automatic is over 0,5s slower than manual that difference is just too big imo.
Would be nice to even do some endurance racing, now only endurance racing that can do is goliath, would be nice to see that we could do blueprints with way more laps than 50.
For me, the desire to see performance automatics shift quicker has nothing to do with making the game easier, but everything to do with accurately representing the cars (especially modern performance models). The way transmissions are implemented right now gives an arbitrary hard-coded speed boost to players using a manual transmission difficulty option (more with clutch), which is my biggest problem with the whole system.
Players should definitely be rewarded for learning gear control and the correct gear for an upcoming corner, but so long as the game engine is modeling RL, then this reward of faster times will come out of the driving physics with no need for a “cheat” boost.
It really sounds like you’re confusing manual and automatic up a bit here.
There are 2 types of manual, a classic style with a shifter and clutch, and the modern paddle shifting type.
Automatic means you don’t flip a paddle or move anything, the car decides what gear to be in.
I think a lot of new automatics are overrated due to most people not being overly slick at shifting a true manual.
Performance flappy paddle transmissions shift much faster than a random street car with an actual automatic transmission.
The clutch function in Forza games is the closest thing to being unrealistic, and even with that, something with a classic manual will NOT shift as quickly as something like a Ferrari with flappy paddles. (I mean in the game, not just real life)
But there’s no reason for classic manuals to require longer than .3 for shift time, because that’s what good drivers do.
One thing I would definitely agree on, is that using a clutch on flappy paddle cars shouldn’t be a thing. Not an option, let alone required to meet “hardcore”.
If the car doesn’t have a manual clutch, manual clutch shouldn’t work when driving that car.
It gets old having to switch constantly between “difficulty” settings just to replicate the actual car.
Precisely that. I never expected this many people to be concerned about a trivial “issue” like shift times.
The cake is there to be had, and it’s edible too, but it was made with half salt, half sugar. You can’t cut the sugary part out and leave the salty parts for everyone else. Everyone’s slice has an equal amount of both salt and sugar in it. We all have our plates, but everyone has to decide whether or not to eat.
If my admittedly abstract metaphor above needs more emphasis: with any and every situation in which there’s a debate, no solution can completely satisfy all of both sides’ demands. Compromises must be made somewhere, either entirely on one side, or maybe entirely on the other. But the ideal solution will have both sides compromise equally.
I.e. if you want faster shift times, you have to use manual. If you want that minute workload lifted, you have to deal with the less efficient shifting of automatic.
I honestly don’t see how this entire thread turned out the way it did, but I’ll still go along with it. If for anything, the entertainment factor. I’m completely open to changes to the shifting system as long as it doesn’t affect me negatively. I’d like to think everyone else feels the same but maybe from the other side of the tracks.
The F40 has very long gears and turbo lag. Between revving it higher and not lifting throttle to shift, the difference is one of the highest of any car in the game.
Also the F40 has a 30 year old manual gearbox, if they had made an automatic, it would have gotten creamed by the manuals, as is the case with 99% of all cars with older, not high-tech autos.
On a stock Subaru STi, most manual drivers over-rev past the powerband, and automatic can be faster if the driver doesn’t shift before redline.
DSG cars don’t offer a large advantage by taking manual, and sometimes it’s actually slower to do so.
In real life, anything made before around 2000, and most cars made before 2010 or so, automatic transmissions sucked. They sucked bad. Less gears, slow shifts, and usually low shift points.
In reality, most older cars would be even more slower as automatic vs manual.
I had a 5 speed cavalier, and my wife had an automatic. Racing them would have been an absolute joke, the manual would be going 70mph before the automatic hit 60mph.
I would really like to see these games start including proper automatic transmissions, torque converter and all. Particularly.having to choose at purchase time, and having to buy and install a different option if you want to change between them.
