I think % of outer front peak friction should continue to be a factor in the final steering output on gamepad, but there needs to be other references in the calculation too, including rear outer peak friction, and vehicle yaw moment/rate. Gamepad steering should be capable of balancing the car in oversteer with better precision and predictability.
The arcadey feel comes from the yaw damper and roll damper. It’s perfectly ok to draw from variables like that to determine final steering output on gamepad. It’s not ok to override the core physics with arbitrary forces, or (at least, not nearly this much) player-input-relative forces. I don’t want 1:1 analog-stick-as-wheel input, and I also don’t want to play God. I just want to drive the car.
THERE IS NO YAW DAMPER. There is no “arbitrary force” that controls the yaw of the car on controller when using simulation steering. IT IS ONLY PRESENT ON NORMAL STEERING.
“The Normal steering assist may make FFB feel “sharper” because it influences the yaw inertia of the car to help maintain control during rapid lock-to-lock steering situations. This makes the car somewhat less agile than with Simulation steering, but also more stable.”
“There are multiple systems layered together to create Normal steering. Some of these layers alter inputs where some of these layers alter the vehicle dynamics. Simulation Steering turns these systems off. The input layers of these systems are turned off any time you use a wheel, regardless of the steering setting.”
You steer the car from the front wheels, not the rear wheels. Yaw, momentum, rate, pitch and peak friction of the rear tires SHOULD NOT influence what the front tires are doing! It’s pointless. You say you don’t like “arbitrary forces” to override the physics but all you’re doing with this solution is doing the exact same thing with steering angle. You’re overriding the user and taking away engagement, control, skill and speed. It won’t make the cars easier to drive and more balanced NORMAL STEERING IS LITERALLY FOR THAT ALREADY. All you’ve done is create another version of normal steering but actually worse because you’re taking into account rear grip. You’re literally making the rear of the car dictate what the front is doing. It won’t decrease lap times, it won’t increase control and comfort, all it’ll do is artificially understeer the car when the rear kicks loose or goes over 100% peak friction. Any hint of oversteer and you’d understeer. The game would just feel even more on rails and even more restrictive.
The best system is what we have in place now and that’s to give the user maximum grip and control at the front of the car while not being able to abuse a controller’s clear advantage of lock to lock speed. We do not need to take away control of the rear of the car. That’s disastrous.
Now I do however agree with opencamswrx and believe an option to remove all controller filters and be left with the raw physics should indeed be an option, though that will just make the car harder and slower to drive but nevertheless out should be an option.
Then don’t code it like that. Currently it’s “any hint of oversteer and you oversteer” (lose time from overcorrection). There’s a middle ground to be explored.
Yaw damper and roll damper - yeah, you nailed it. This is why I feel my car’s nose isn’t turning and pointing to the apex like it should or that there isn’t enough bodyroll even though I’m turning really hard.
In PCARS2 (controller), you can feel yaw and bodyroll very well, not just in the way the car reacts but also in replays when you see it changing direction and working hard on its suspension. Cars in Forza feel like they are sometimes “on rails” and have too many dampening forces acting on them. The suspension movement or turning/yaw doesn’t quite feel right. It’s like the game says to you: “ah, ah, ah - that’s as far as you’re going fella, no more yaw or bodyroll for you then”.
The stiffness during corners is due to the tire changes (narrowed optimal slipangle) which mostly occurred between FM4 and FM5. I believe this was to “enhance” the gamepad driving experience, as an quick fix rather than comprehensively rewriting the steering algorithm.
I feel the rails, all the time. The newer Gran Turismos feel on-rails, but it’s a responsive rail, fun to play with. Forza’s rail is it’s own worst enemy. It undermines the suspension’s attempts to support the car and regulate tire load.
Assuming it’s intended purpose is to “improve drivability”, the irony of the roll damper is, it reduces the ability of the suspension to regulate tire loads, harming drivability. It might simply be that the core car configs have unnaturally high z-axis inertia values, because I felt it the same on wheel sim steering as gamepad sim steering.
Exactly - they need to improve their core physics model to make the driving more nuanced and unforgiving. Even the best gaming wheel will not make Forza like a proper driving game or simulator - because, well… it isn’t.
Like FM4 tires? Which were great. I think those with FM7 FFB would be close to perfect. Re-worked gamepad steering for better limit and oversteer behavior, faster and cleaner feeling. Maybe some fine tire tweaks for different compounds and aspect ratios, widths, surfaces… nothing major like how different they are in FM7.
Not sure why you want it to be more unforgiving though…
Evans right, its obviously not like that seeing as how the majority of top times are set with a controller. You either need to refine your tunes based on forzas tuning options (not real life) and change how you are driving. Forza is quite easy to be competitive in with a pad. Even if you don’t enjoy the filters set on a pad they are super easy compared to most other games and are far more competitive than most driving games. I see you guys talking about pcars a lot but i think one of the reasons that pcars comes up so often and is acceptable on a pad is because the physics allow for overdriving and overdriving is pcars imo is the quickest way to drive. I recently redownloaded pcars 2 ran about 12 laps and couldn’t for the life of me get the car to spin out and had to completely adjust my driving from what i was used to in iracing to be super aggressive on throttle and brakes and pushing through corners (all 3 of which would result in instant death on iracing) before my lap times started really falling. Shortly after that i uninstalled the game again because I dont enjoy driving that way.
GT sport multiplayer is leagues upon leagues ahead of FM7.
And offline is no fun as the AI is awful - truly, truly awful. They just follow the racing line at different speeds for each difficulty level.
For FM8 please create a decent online system - GT sport is your competition and you should be trying to best your competition. Safety and skill ratings are a must. And make a decent AI for both drivatars and apportioning collision blame for penalties. And recruit a motorsport consultant - it’s very plain to see that no-one at T10 has any understanding of motorsport.
or you can spend all that ‘next gen’ power on eye candy to please the crowds and not the fans - I’m pretty sure which route yo’ll take
