Turn 10, what you got right and wrong with Forza 7

Of course they are, what did you expect?

People are forgetting one of the biggest reasons this game will never be a fully blown SIM and it’s the fact we have so much content.

There’s 830+ cars in Forza Motorsport 7. Let’s say 750 unique ones after duplicates. That means for the stock suspension to not be “attrotious” you have to model 750 unique suspension setups. That’s not going to happen, not when every car has different curb weight, downforce weight, corner weight, weight distribution, steering angle, unsprung weight etc.

Hence why Forza does what’s smart, they throw everything into what’s essentially an algorithm that spits back a tune. It does a decent job for the most part but some cars do slip through the cracks such as rear engined cars. They don’t refine the stock tunes because how can they? The time it’d take to do that for 750+ cars is astronomical. For example, a lot of people complained about Porsche’s lifting up the front wheels and most of them assumed it was the physics themselves. That’s incorrect, it’s down to the stock suspension setup.

People expecting realistic setups for 750+ cars are in a dream world. Why do you think most SIMS have far less of a car count? It’s because it takes far less time to add attention to detail to 100 cars then 750+.

Now, personally, I’d be in favour for a Forza Motorsport 5 style car list purge, where we go to around 200 cars and make them more refined but the majority of the community isn’t going to want that and rightfully so.

Thankfully, this isn’t even a huge problem because upgrades and tuning are a thing and we have some talented tuners out there who can put pretty nice setups on these cars. As for stock hoppers, just stay out of them.

As for cars understeering, most cars in Forza have more front grip and less understeer than real life, hence why you can take most cars to tracks and be much faster than their real life counterparts. A McLaren P1 can do a lap around the ring in the low 30’s, high 20’s.

2 Likes

I don’t think it’s that at all.

Forza Motorsport had to be different from Gran Turismo. GT is snappy and immediate. Forza is “controlled”, “refined”. The stock setups cater an antithetic image.

GT pad steering (what I remember of GT5…) is intuitive and immediate. Forza pad steering is “different”. Between it, and the stock setups, the cars would be undrivable, without the controller yaw assists. All 3 together make Forza very different from GT.

It’s a shame, because Forza has (had*?) better tire physics than GT. If they could stop trying to be different, only try to be good, Forza could become the ubiquitously better title. GT Sport didn’t invent ride frequency or damping ratio. They realized that applying the same engineering methods as real-world race teams and independent drivers do was the most effective way to help players have the most fun and satisfaction possible with their game. They didn’t invent steering like you mean it and embracing oversteer as an expected consequence of pushing the limit. They understood that driving fast, is fast, and fun.

edit: watching vids of GT sport now. It’s not like GT5 was… idk… some of what I said above might be relevant.

You know, this is why I’ve been investing most of my gaming time in PCARS2 - because it doesn’t try to be GT or Forza - it has it’s own place and the execution on that game is just brilliant. From the car sounds and vivid, photorealistic visuals to the nuanced physics for each car. Oh… the physics! For a crowd funded game made by a much smaller studio and only their second game in, I am surprised at how deep the simulation is.

With Forza the thing is just because it’s somewhat better than GT, they say to themselves “okay, this will do for now - we’ll see how we can improve the game in the next title or next generation console”. The improvements have been far from marginal between FM5 and 7 or even between FM4 and this generation of Forza. Forza needs to stop thinking about beating GT and build a quality based product that doesn’t have to necessarily compare itself to other console racers. It should stand out proudly on its own. It’s kind of like going to the gym and seeing a better version of yourself; where your only competition is YOU. I hope that kinda explains what I’m getting at.

Learn PCARS2 (on a wheel or pad) and you can become a much better driver IRL. Learn on Forza and try to drive like that in real life - you’re either looking at an expensive trip to the hospital or huge insurance premiums - or both!

I can share my pad settings for your PCARS2 lovers if you like, just PM me. I’ve got the handling down to something very similar to how pad control is on Forza.

1 Like

I agree with parts of what you said but GT Sport’s car list is far smaller. Going by Kudosprime’s numbers, GTS has 299 cars while Forza Motorsport 7 has 833. It’s has around 36 to 40% when taking in duplicates.

The base physics of FM7 are very good. It has a very good tire model that has a tire flex and deformation system better than a lot of SIMS, where different compounds have different properties (try driving with the drag tires, the flex on the rear is incredible to see). It has a great Force Feedback system, by far the best of the franchise and in my opinion, not far off Assetto Corsa’s (though I haven’t tried Assetto Corsa Competitzione yet but I’ve heard that’s fantastic on the wheel). Forza also, apart from the poor stock tunes has a decent suspension model and they also stimulate some other nice things like chassis flex, a really nice transmission system where lifting off the power in certain cars causes the revs to fluctuate and I believe they also simulate driveline flex if memory servers me correct.

The problem with Forza’s physics is that it simulates the bare minimum. There’s no ERS, DRS, KERS, hybrid deployment or recovery or active aerodynamics. They’re all pre-baked into existing physical properties. There’s no brake fade or tire wear until you hit 90% and the damage model though excellent when you actually get damage, has a bug where you can’t get any contact damage unless it’s 100% damage.

That aside, the base physics are good, it’s just that they need to add to it. The main problem is a lack of refinement on a per car basis.

Have you tried either one of my realistic tunes & setups? I use handicaps, upgrades and custom tuning to push the physics as far as they go. The reason why they feel much better than a stock Forza car is because it’s been refined but within the parameters of the physics. It shows what can be done with the existing physics model we have.

Ignore the poor FPS but here’s a video of my realistic McLaren P1 setup at the Nurburgring. I think the lap was meh, enough for amid 6:50’s but much closer to real life than the high 6:20’s low 30’s that’s possible with the stock setups in the past:

https://youtu.be/PR2lN4PYSlY (Realistic IndyCar at Long Beach)

If we had a purge to around 300 cars, everything would be so much better right out of the bag but then you’re losing so much content.

Every update the handling characteristics and physics become more and more Horizon-like. Might as well call this Horizon 7! Just sad :frowning:

2 Likes

I’m a PC player. For me, good:

  • Graphics. Smooth 4K support
  • Nice looking menus
  • Exellent GUI
  • Forza Cup
  • tuning
  • user livery. Massively addictive.
  • outstanding car selection
  • tracks nicely replicated
  • Outfits pretty useless and attracting lots of criticisms but for me it’s a fairly meaningless yet nice feature if you think of it for what it is. Just a nice touch.

Bad:

  • physics. Cars much easier to drive than in others SIM titles. Perhaps an option would be nice
  • wasted development effort on junk like hot wheels and drag racing
  • rally cars but no rallying
  • updates don’t give us new tracks
  • no IA in multiplayer
  • poor AI
  • no time intervals (who cares about distance?)
  • non customisable HUD
  • No KERS, no DRS
  • worst pit stop simulation ever. No fuel or tyre choice
  • terrible tyre wear simulation. Almost no difference till completely worn
  • Accelerated tyre wear and fuel usage would be good
  • time of day and weather poor
  • optional random failures would be nice
  • no qualifying

It may seem like high expectations but know at least 2 games which offer all of the above (Aside from perhaps track DLC’s) so it can be done. Line between FM and Horizon is getting blurry.

2 Likes

Great list - i agree with most and in fact, people have been asking for these features for years as I’ve come to know, but still nowhere in sight.

They are bridging the divide between horizon and motorsport - I don’t like it at all.

There’s no stopping them from working on a low number of cars up front and then adding more through paid and free DLC. Low cars up front means the handling characteristics are done justice and the sounds are accurate.

Also, they can have a pure hardcore sim physics model for serious players - why won’t they do this?

I like the features and stuff to do but some of them are utterly useless: ridiculous ‘driver costumes’ and cars that you could only admire in your garage and can’t really enjoy on a race track.

the track collection is decent but it’s getting stale - between FM4 and 7, they’ve added around 6 tracks I think - two of them are from FM4 while the handful of fantasy tracks that made the X360 Forzas so memorable are nowhere to be found. I’m a little weary of the track collection, to be honest. I say they bring back ALL the tracks and add a few more with the passage of time.

there are already arcade racing games to choose from - I’d rather not have forza join the ranks.

1 Like

Thanks for the clarification. I drive with wheel and pedals, not a controller, your mileage may vary.

In either case, I think most will agree that an untuned / stock car in this game is less than ideal.

Forza stock production car* suspensions are helplessly overdamped. You’re both correct. They will oversteer, and understeer, depending on the situation and driver input.

Where do you get your information that they are modeling all of the things you claim? Or is this just fanboyism and making false claims like i see so commonly around here?

Tire flex is modeled in the game and is quite visable. I’m pretty sure tire flex has been a thing since Forza Motorsport 4 or perhaps even earlier. One of the old Forza Motorsport 4 in-game trailers showed a Mazda Miata autocross with the camera zooming into the tire flex. Transmission or rev fluctuation can be found in specific cars in Forza Motorsport 7. The 2014 Porsche 918 Spyder has a large amount of rev fluctuation particularly in 1st gear. Chassis flex was mentioned back in the Forza Motorsport 5 days when they were comparing old classic cars from the 60’s to modern cars. I could very well be wrong that it’s modelled, I’ll have to find the clip once I’m home from work and hopefully I do. During the 2017 E3 for Forza Motorsport 7, when driving the 2018 Porsche 911 GT2 RS at Dubai. The first two (tire flex and rev fluctuation) are definitely present, the second two I could very well be wrong or have misinterpreted, hence why I said “… I believe if my memory serves me correct” in my original post.

Also going to add that when racing online cars behave differently from what you tuned them to do 24/7. Example, just tuned my RX-7 to race on walkins glen for class b, literally raced with the car for over half an hour with no changes to it once I finished tuning, went online to race with it, completely different result, same turning points, same braking and accelerating for the differential, suspension locks up 24/7. Go check it offline, races like it’s supposed to.

This happens over and over and over and over again. Fix this.

1 Like

https://forums.forza.net/turn10_postst99506_Forza-Motorsport-7-Driveline-Flex-and-Audio.aspx

Here’s the forum thread from over two years ago on driveline flex which ironically I posted in 2 years ago, go figure lol. and it’s even mentioned in the support site:

Not at home yet, but I’ll see if I can find other stuff later. That was just a quick Google search.

That all refers to the audio. Just because its represented in audio doesnt mean it is built into the physics engine, all it requires is some sort of indication of when it should happen. Also regarding the tyre flex, graphically it was backwards for quite some time not sure if this is still the case havent paid attention. If this is still true i find it hard to believe that tyre flex is more than a visual. I dont know that T10 has ever said what is actually represented in their physics other than what we can see in telemetry.

Most tire physics* models have deflection/flex characteristics.
I was wrong about the stock setups btw. I still think cars feel too heavy and sluggish on controller but it’s not the suspension doing it.

Project cars 1 JUST started as a crowd funded game and its physics was ages behind forza motorsport 6 physics (also known as simcade game), but well it was just the FOURTH game from slighty mad studios, Project cars 2 has never been a crowd funded project, and it’s implementation of controller support is ages behind Need For Speed Shift aka their first game but well it’s just their FIFTH game…
Forza Motorsport 7 for your information came out before GT Sport (a game born to be only online without a single player campaign) so i don’t think Turn 10 were going to consider GT Sport in any way through the development of Forza Motorsport 7 also considering the fact that GT Sport release could have been delayed again.
Now in case you missed it Forza Motorsport 7 is a simcade game while Project Cars 2 is a sim wannabe.
Learning how to play any game with the pad won’t improve you in any way your driving skill in real life, and in my opinion neither with a wheel, we are always talking about games.

I can assure you PCARS2 is no “sim wanabe”. Spend some time on a real track with a high-powered car and you will know what I mean.

Cheers.

I have It since day one and I play It, I also have Assetto Corsa on Steam and I suggest you to try It if you like simulators and you own a wheel then you’ll understand why I’m saying pcars 2 Is a sim wannabe.