Pretty sure the Unbeatable Drivatars against the 2019 GT3 RS are broken

Forza Horizon Legacy Horizon FH4 Discussion
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Bone stock. Stock tune. I like to run this way against unbeatables sometimes. Most times I win with little struggle. 2016 GT3 RS - Win. 2018 GT2 RS - Win. Decided to try the 2019 GT3 RS tonight and it seems like the Drivatars are cranked to 11. Rubber banding in FULL effect. Speed boosts. Super grip. You name it, I saw it. What’s up with that? The scoreboard at the end of the race had a PI 904 AM GT12 in first. What?! Every other car had a PI lower than my BONE STOCK 2019 GT3 RS. I mean I wasn’t blown away by every other car, but the lead car with a PI of 904 was miles ahead.

Think y’all should take a look at this 'n see what’s up cos as it stands this is NOT fun at all.

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I feel the new GT3s are overrated in PI, not sure why.

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If I get bum rushed and spun out by another chicken suit wearing jerk driving a Clio FE, [Mod Edit - profanity is prohibited - MM]

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Not just this, try Montain Wynds which is located in the right north half of the Map ( Streetracing Series ) tried different Cars which tuned perfectly in terms of corners and acceleration out of corners etc. couldnt even catch the 4th or 5th. Its like they not even braking in the corner sections and getting Speedboost out of Nowhere. Tried it in a Apollo IE which is perfect for Highspeed Cornering also, even with full assistance enabled just to see if its getting better but… yea…

Its definitely not my driving, I’m not a Beginner at all and there is always a chance to loose or win. But i can see clearly here is something wrong with the AI. No way a RX7 could overtake a Apollo IE in pure acceleration side by side.

At least im demotivated from this Game. I like to build Cars and tune them to like Cornering, Acceleration, Speed and so on. Experimenting with Parts to do best build i can do but at some point you race against the AI in this Game it becomes senseless.

Like i said there is no problem of loosing, we all do at some point but you can clearly see that the AI is cheating, even after cutting them on corners they get some kind of Boost and radically get faster.

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Monument Wynds is sort of special like that. It’s not the Drivatars but something with the route influencing Drivatars. It’s pretty good challenge, but frustrating at times on Pro. Unbeatable might be… very challenging if you get Drivatar super rubber band on top of their 100% perfect race, that can happen sometimes.

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But I only notice this problem with certain cars. I can take a Diablo out & run it against Unbeatables and win all day long, but the second I grab the Sesto Elemento it’s game over. I can’t catch the top 4 at all. Seems to be real prominent when using a track toy. Really weird, and not cool at all.

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I’m sorry, are you complaining that unbeatable drivatars are unbeatable?

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If they could beat me with skill, I’d be A-OK with that. In fact, I would prefer if the difficulty levels (especially unbeatable) gave the CPU a PI boost, as opposed to what they actually do, which is blatantly cheat with traction buffs. You can see it the worst on Cross Country maps. Heavier cars with smaller tires maintaining grip while going faster than you are around a corner on your inside.

It was worse in 3, where you would see cars with stock tires and no areo blast past you on corners (even when it’s the same model you are driving), but it’s still bad in 4.

Like I said, I’d MUCH prefer a PI handicap instead of this behind the scenes buffing of the CPU.

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What class, car, tuned/stock, routes? Also see my post just above yours.

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They’re only unbeatable in certain scenarios. That’s the weird part. I can beat them all day long in everything but track toys. That’s just strange.

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Obviously they can’t be unbeatable without cheating though so they really be renamed Unbeatable Cheats. :grinning:

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You can win the Goliath with a tuned 2019 GT3 RS on Unbeatable, but that’s mainly because on the Goliath most of the other cars crash a lot. I just won first try anyway.

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I have a theory. I really don’t think it’s Drivatars but about Route specific issue with starting location and that on higher difficulties player starts further back with one more possible factor, being Drivatar vehicle.

Monument Wynds and The Highland Charge which is also a Street Race share this feature.

On Monument Wynds Drivatars starting from first rows have very short distance to downhill section after left turn. While it may not be obvious from first person view, start is on uphill section, which again is quite short for Drivatars starting on front row, while players starting from back rows suffer that on their acceleration. Also On The Highland Charge, Drivatars starting from first rows appear to be able to use downhill section to their advantage.

On both routes it may occur that either Drivatar or vehicle Drivatar is using has some feature that makes their race about perfect meaning they make no mistakes and are able to take advantage of car features, like AWD for example. Today I had a race on Highland Charge on Pro difficulty where leading Drivatar clocked at 2:41.796 with Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX (C 543 which is stock). Car is also AWD stock. Best time I was able to do in race with stock '92 Nissan Silvia (C 525) RWD was 2:43.864 and while there were couple of mistakes, there was nothing terrible and it was pretty good race considering chaos of Street scene. I was able to win after starting over against different Drivatar line up.

This is very similar to what I have experienced on Monument Wynds many times. Latest I have screenshots is interesting as it happened during Playlist event, which I also always do on Pro. Porsche Cayman championship, with very similar cars. Drivatars best times were 2:17.571 - 2:17.754 with Cayman and Cayman 718 GTS (both S1 838) so upgraded '15 Cayman GTS and 718 GTS vs. my best time with stock '17 Cayman GT4 (S1 840) mine 2:18.539. I was able to win after starting over (not restarting) with worse time, 1:19.799.

So I think it probably isn’t as much about rubber band as I previously thought. Considering that on Highland Charge I was racing against very good AWD car and on Monument Wynds against Upgraded Drivatar vehicles, Drivatar upgrades tend to be on speed side, this would suggest that it’s Drivatar car features are deciding factor, this adds to their starting row advantage and when it happens that Drivatars get 100% perfect race on top of that, odds really are against player on these two routes.

There is one Road Race I can think of which has similar issue. On higher difficulties Drivatars start to downhill and players starting from back rows are starting to slight uphill. Don’t recall it’s name but it’s starts somewhere in Festival area and was part of S2 Hypercars Playlist championship month or two ago.

Band aids:

  • Avoid wheelspin at start, effect is worse than on most other routes because of route specific additional advantage for Drivatars starting from first rows.
  • Start over (finish the race, don’t re-try) and see how you do against different Drivatar lineup
  • Many cars in lower classes (C-B) has suspension that enables them to use sidewalks on Monument Wynds reliably to get on advantageous alternate racing line. This is very hit or miss on higher class, more powerful cars which tend to jump, spin, etc. Can probably be solved with upgrades / tuning, don’t know what kind of compromise that would be, I mostly drive stock.

Worth to note:

If my theory is correct, my previous thought about Drivatars having some sort of super rubberband on some routes was incorrect. Instead Drivatars are actually working like they should but on some routes starting location gives them more advantage on higher difficulties (Pro and Unbeatable) than they perhaps should have. Perhaps Drivatar AI was tweaked at some point, which created this situation or maybe it was like this since the launch, but in any case, this is something that should have been caught at Q&A.

I really like Street Racing and wouldn’t even playing the game if it weren’t a feature. That said, these two routes on Street Races, Monument Wynds and Highland Charge have been prevented me from moving from Pro to Unbeatable. Always thought there was something I don’t get and maybe there is. I just wasn’t looking right things.

Issue still remains that Pro Drivatars are sometimes almost boring to some of us, what to do without nerfing them in general. Again issue IMO is in route design.

Big thanks to OP for this topic and please, anyone share your experiences and thoughts.

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Did some testing against Unbeatable.

I decided to start with D-class and did all 21 Street Racing events with '70 Datsun 150 stock (D 209).

I was able to win every event but not against every line. I tried restarting from the menu on few routes and ended up finishing races and trying again against different line up.

What I have followed discussion about Drivatars on Unbeatable the usual suspects turned up. I didn’t had much of a problem at first races I did on Lakehurst Rush, Ambleside Ascent, Broadway Crossfire, Batham Gate, Derwent Walley Dash, Reservoir Run, Wind Farm Rush and Mortimer’s Pass.

BMW Isetta was manageable but on one route, Rail Yard Express where it clocked 3:30.410. On few tries I put on that route with Datsun my best time was 3:31.595. That’s the only route where I couldn’t beat Isetta, but Peel P50 (D 100) turned out to be real pain. No single time below 3:30 from P50 on that route, best I saw was 3:27.407 but that was just a fair warning about Peel nightmare to happen later.

On Glenfinnan Chase I made couple of mistakes and ended up having really tight race against JB Citroen CV2, (which can totally ruin D 100 - D 150 races even on Pro when it appears in lineup). Fast but manageable and actually had fun. Highland Charge was a breeze, won with no issues.

On Edinburgh West End there was a Peel Trident but it finished on 10th. position for some reason. Edinburgh Stockbridge, Edinburgh New Town, no issues. Decided to try Rail Yard Express and won it easily as no Isetta or Peel vehicle appeared in line up.

The Monument Wynds thankfully didn’t had Peel or Isetta in line up either and was actually good race but then my luck turned.

On Holyrood Run I was beaten by Peel P50 with bit over 10 seconds 3:24.263 vs my 3:34.840. Okay wasn’t the best run from me either, but Drivatar finishing third had time of 3:40.547 with M-B Super Sport.

Went to do North Coast Rush and again Peel P50 appeared beating me 3:54.852 vs my 4:14.104. Drivatar coming third clocked 4:21.379 with '38 MG TA.

Tried Holyrood Run again and won it against Isetta coming second. My time was 3:31.804 which is IMO decent, vs Isetta 3:34.474.

Decided to try North Coast Rush again, but got beaten by Peel Trident which clocked 4:06.572 vs, my time which was over 4:18, got hit by Drivatars trying to avoid traffic car early in race and lost more time in some corners when I was trying way too hard. Retried from the results menu and got time of 4:14.730 beaten again by Peel Trident which managed to shave almost a second from it’s previous time clocking 4:05.704.

At that point I decided to move to race Coastal Charge. Peel P50 appeared, beat me by clocking 2:42.438 vs my 2:55.034. Okay, I’m getting the memo.

Tried North Coast Rush again. No Peel’s in line up. Won with time 4:15.806 (went on wrong line in 90 degree from gravel to tarmac) vs Drivatar coming second '68 Abarth 4:21.529.

It was Coastal Charge time again. Noticed Drivatar Peel Trident in line up but it was starting from my row. The “Epic Battle” ended by Trident winning with time 2:54.050 vs 2:57.753. Couldn’t beaten it even with my best time earlier (2:55.xxx).

Went to do Ashbrook Apex which I won 3:57.070 against Morris Traveller coming second 3:58.189.

Decided to try Coastal Charge once again. Again Peel Trident appeared in line up. I’v had enough of those tiny little … ruining my evening races and just watched it disappearing like flash to 1st position. Peel Trident is however slower than P50 and I managed to catch that annoying thing on wide curve that can be taken on top speed with lower class cars, and sideswided it to the woods. For a moment I was happy, racing to win only to notice on final uphill section that this tiny nerve wrecking nightmare fuel from hell had managed to make a come back! Managed to win it only by blocking the best I could, times were 2:56.763 vs 2:57.005. And that was the only time I was able to beat Peel vehicle on Unbeatable, by dirty playing.

The final race was the Marathon. Saw Peel in lineup, quit, start again, Peel again, just no. I think on 4th or 5th time I restarted the event I got Drivatar lineup with no Peels in it. Won it with time 12:03.024 against Drivatar Morris Traveller clocking 12:04.024. It was actually pretty good race, I made couple of mistakes and got lead only on final segment of route.

Summary

Drivatars in D class at least aren’t broken in general but there are couple of odd-ball cars that are practically broken. Of course players can choose to use them too exclusively but that’s not very fun. BMW Isetta has come up in a many discussions but I think it’s not that bad unless it appears front lining starting grid on routes like Monument Wynds and Highland Charge. I wasn’t able to beat it but in one race where it appeared but I think that second I’m missing may be found somewhere along that route. There is also that uphill bend sections are very difficult for stock Datsun, it has a rev engine and gear ratios don’t give it enough torque going from second to third. I’m fine with this or actually I think it’s great. I don’t think Drivatars should rubber band on Unbeatable because player selected vehicle has obvious disadvantage.

I have spent lot of time racing stock Nissans from late '60’s to early '70s on Pro and never had a problem like I encountered with Drivatar Peel vehicles on Unbeatable. That may be though because those older Nissans are still in upper D-class. From '69 Fairlady Z 432 (D 439) to '73 Skyline H/T 2000GT-R (D 494).

I may have another run with this using different car, perhaps something from C-class, but this sort of thing takes time. Meanwhile anyone can post data, not only their feelings, which may be justified, but don’t give anything solid to work with, or even submit a ticket that has any chance to get anywhere and get anything fixed.

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To remove rubber banding the AI must first be able to control their cars with the same tools as players, and be able to plan and follow equally fluid and fast lines through corners. Even with rubber banding, they are seconds per minute slower than human pace on many tracks.

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Yep. Noticed that when I was doing my test runs during weekend and again today when I did some more test runs in D-class against Unbeatable. I was able to win every race.

I try to post more about it later, but it appears that even on Unbeatable once getting higher in PI class D 4xx Peel cars don’t appear human player has lot of advantages. What I had today were good races actually, restarted couple of times since Unbeatable appears to be less forgiving to mistakes than Pro (which would make sense!) but never changed line up I was racing against. So no unfair advantage found this far but I have Monument Wynds and Highland Charge yet to be tested.

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The traction buff doesn’t really have much impact on D class. Let me be clear though: I don’t have an issue beating unbeatable (unless it’s cross country). What I do have is an issue with the way they are competitive.

Like I said, I’d rather the buff to CPU be upfront with a PI advantage/handicap as opposed to the sneaky behind the scenes traction and rubber banding buffs. That would be far more tolerable from my viewpoint at least.

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I don’t entirely disagree. Two particular routes Monument Wynds and Highland Charge are manageable on lower classes car because of things you mentioned, but not so much on S1 unless you tune your suspension, then your PI goes up and there goes advantage of possibility to use sidewalks (alternate racing lines).

What I’m basically saying is that not everything that is attributed to rubber band is necessarily it. Like in cases of Monument Wynds and Highland Charge. Rubber band can make situation worse on those routes though, but what’s the solution in odd cases like these?

Then in general what I’m thinking now is that if Drivatar AI could / would be adjusted, that perhaps it would work the best by doing Unbeatable specific changes and leaving lower difficulties like they are, because Drivatars are in most cases are IMO pretty okay on Pro and below.

It’s sure going to be interesting once I get to A+ class with my tests runs. I’m terrible at S2, especially on wet roads.

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Finished my second test run.

I used stock '79 Chevrolet Camaro Z28 (D 460) and did all 21 Street Races in game with it against Unbeatable Drivatars.

Results: I was able to win every race, most of the time quite easily. There are couple of opponent cars to watch out though. Drivatar '71 Nissan GT-R, Jeep CJ5 Renegade can be tough opponents. '71 Nissan GT-R is really good car in general and is supposed to be tough opponent but may be quite tough to beat on Highland Charge and Monument Wynds if it starts from first rows. CJ5 can be really fast but that happened only once in North Coast Rush. It’s naturally AWD and Drivatar was using upgraded one (D 455, stock is D 417).

There was one single odd case with really fast Meyers Manx on the Marathon, despite it never being a real factor in any other race. I don’t know what to think about that. It was D 456 while stock is D 218. Unfortunately it ended up in the ditch when I passed it in left turn before hill turning to left towards final section of route. It ended up finishing 5th so no real comparable time.

I would put stock '79 Chevrolet Camaro Z28 in “Safe to Use vs Unbeatable” list. I know it’s not available in Autoshow, but should go really cheap in Auction House. Even more important may be its PI. No Peel vehicles appeared in any race. So they are not a problem if car with PI D 460+ is used at least. I don’t know if that car is RWD has any factor to Drivatars lineup or if it’s just about PI.

Couple of other things:

  • Drivatar appear to have bit more launch power on Unbeatable but for me it looked like that led some Drivatar cars messing up going side from side of road in search for grip and colliding with traffic and colliding with other Drivatars perhaps more than on Pro. They have power, but no handling.
  • Unbeatable in D-class appears to be much about simply doing only doing small mistakes and not too many. No need to be perfect, but come backs are more difficult than on Pro and serious mistake may easily ruin the race. And being creative with racing line and understanding your vehicle. I think players trying to do these races with automatic transmission might be in difficult situation on some routes.
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Did some more test runs vs. Unbeatable

Cars to “Safe vs. Unbeatable” list

'87 Pontiac Firebird Trans Am GTA stock (C 505)
'69 Ferrari Dino 246 GT stock (C 512)

For Pontiac main contender is Mitsubishi Galant VR-4 but the Monument Wynds I had odd case of '96 Chevrolet Impala which looked like very difficult to beat with times 2:57.153 - 2:56.861 but accidentally went to finish race instead of retry option after couple of races. Got 2:57.010 with room to improve when I run against different lineup, so thing is beatable.

For Ferrari Drivatar Subaru BRZ stock can be serious challenge on some routes, but beatable.

Note that these apply to Street Races only.