PI changes

[jfiler]

@SatNiteEduardo

@jfiler

@B_Wald_Big_Mek

The bigges problem with PI is that it doesn’t account for tuning, driving style or skill. The car’s base stats only say so much.

Tuned cars should have to be “benchmarked”, and their PI recalculated based on the results.

Agreed… Part of the tune should add or remove P.I. points (like in GT). If you add more down force then it adds more P.I. because you’re making the car handle and brake better without sacrificing acceleration, power or the weight of the car. Most of the faster cars are the ones that have a good amount of grip while maintaing a high level of acceleration. Adding this kind of P.I. system would making tuning more challenging and help evenly spread the playing field of cars.

Removing downforce may be better for speed tracks though.

For example what a lot of tuners do now is add a rear wing to drop pi and then tune it to minimum to get the speed back. They do that because its the best combo when combined with build to get best laptimes. In your scenario reducing rear aero in the tune would drop pi which makes it once again abusable.

Now IF and its a big IF but IF a pi system could properly take account of tuning then you would end up with no point in tuning because if you improve a car via tuning then PI would go up and offset any gain you get.

Problem is if I add aero and get a better laptime and someone else removes aero and gets a better laptime then what should the PI do? And no you can not have different PIs for different players - it needs to be a unform system.

PI should only ever go up if it guarantees improved laptimes in all cases.

I think the current system needs 2 tweaks - don’t penalise increased speed as much as now and do penalise drops in weight more than now.

If you currently add to top speed the PI goes up too much.

Almost every leaderboard car happens to be the lightest when compared to cars with similar other stats.

Tuning springs and damping won’t affect the top speed or the accelearion in the game so things like that would remain the same. In most cases it the accelearion and handling that win the race not the speed in this game (most tracks). More down force = better handling and acceleration out of the turns. In Forza most of the high top speed cars have low handling or low acceleration. I do see your point though.

[SatNiteEduardo]

@jfiler

Tuning springs and damping won’t affect the top speed or the accelearion in the game so things like that would remain the same. In most cases it the accelearion and handling that win the race not the speed in this game (most tracks). More down force = better handling and acceleration out of the turns. In Forza most of the high top speed cars have low handling or low acceleration. I do see your point though.

Well tuned springs and dampers improve laptimes, poorly tuned and they hinder laptimes.

[jfiler]

@SatNiteEduardo

@jfiler

Tuning springs and damping won’t affect the top speed or the accelearion in the game so things like that would remain the same. In most cases it the accelearion and handling that win the race not the speed in this game (most tracks). More down force = better handling and acceleration out of the turns. In Forza most of the high top speed cars have low handling or low acceleration. I do see your point though.

Well tuned springs and dampers improve laptimes, poorly tuned and they hinder laptimes.

True but so does practice… Lol

[SatNiteEduardo]

@jfiler

@SatNiteEduardo

@jfiler

Tuning springs and damping won’t affect the top speed or the accelearion in the game so things like that would remain the same. In most cases it the accelearion and handling that win the race not the speed in this game (most tracks). More down force = better handling and acceleration out of the turns. In Forza most of the high top speed cars have low handling or low acceleration. I do see your point though.

Well tuned springs and dampers improve laptimes, poorly tuned and they hinder laptimes.

True but so does practice… Lol

I think thats the point.

I think this stream of conversation goes back to the general concept of “tuning should affect PI”.

I believe no tuning should affect pi because different people are faster with different things.

Given your point about practice and I know it was somewhat in gest but do we want a handicap system where craviator has the same chance of winning a race as the cockroach in my broom closet does ro do we want the best drivers / tuners winning races.

If the answer is the best drivers but leave the tuners out of it my comeback is lets have stock races and tuned races. You pick if you want to compete in like for like cars or not.

[Manual_Clutch]

@B_Wald_Big_Mek

Tuned cars should have to be “benchmarked”, and their PI recalculated based on the results.

They did that in FM1.

[uber_understeer]

I think having it more balanced would be great.

The PI is based on light is undervalued
Heavy is overvalued.

Also It is RWD biased /undervalued.

Also Engines swaps are too good in F5.

I would like to see more classes.

[EpicEvan777]

My favourite PI system is actually Forza 5’s. I didn’t like the previous games but I don’t mid Horizon 2, though I would like there to be more classes. I don’t mind what the PI changes to and to be honest that’s no the problem and it doesn’t really affect the game. The problem is Forza 5’s ocassional wacky car ratings. Take the 458 for example. It has a 5.0 in handling (which I think should be higher). It’s regarded as one of the most poised and best balanced cars to drive but it’s only got a 5.0 in handling and then when you drive it in the game it’s like it’s having a twitchy stroke! It handles so bad in the game the rating should be 4.2 in handling! It’s the same with the KTM Crossbow. Either make the cars handle better in the game or downgrade their stats.

[IceMan_PJN]

I’d like to see more PI classes, with classes as low as PI 100 or 200. In FM5 we could’ve had E and F but didn’t. I like keeping cars close to stock but if a car has 100 or so PI but the lowest class is 400, I have to completely replace the entire car. I’d even maybe go so far as having narrower PI bands, like each class spanning 50 rather than 100 PI.

[EpicEvan777]

@IceMan_PJN

I’d like to see more PI classes, with classes as low as PI 100 or 200. In FM5 we could’ve had E and F but didn’t. I like keeping cars close to stock but if a car has 100 or so PI but the lowest class is 400, I have to completely replace the entire car. I’d even maybe go so far as having narrower PI bands, like each class spanning 50 rather than 100 PI.

I couldn’t agree more with you. That would solve a hell of a lot of problems and assure better, closer racing. I also like to keep the cars stock. I have a 458 and all I did to it was put sport tires and new supension on it. If the PI was closer than cars within that PI range could be upgraded to the top end of that class with the feeling that your driving the same base car.

[AliHashbrown]

@IceMan_PJN

I’d like to see more PI classes, with classes as low as PI 100 or 200. In FM5 we could’ve had E and F but didn’t. I like keeping cars close to stock but if a car has 100 or so PI but the lowest class is 400, I have to completely replace the entire car. I’d even maybe go so far as having narrower PI bands, like each class spanning 50 rather than 100 PI.

We could dedicate F/E to a certain type of car. (KARTS PLEASE! I WANT MARIO!)

[uber_understeer]

Heavy cars have lower accel but more power to make up for it thus more top end.

[T_REX_5753]

I liked the U class from FM2.

[SatNiteEduardo]

Some have said it would not work but I think we need some form of dynamic PI. When a car clearly becomes leaderboard material it is somehow handicapped.

In some racing series if one car dominates it gets some form of parity adjustment.

[funky_dunk_1977]

@SatNiteEduardo

Some have said it would not work but I think we need some form of dynamic PI. When a car clearly becomes leaderboard material it is somehow handicapped.

In some racing series if one car dominates it gets some form of parity adjustment.

One of the problems with the PI that causes LB cars is that the PI is calculated on a generic track (used to be similar to Silverstone) but that means that on certain tracks certain cars will be much stronger due to their particular strengths and weaknesses (high power cars are good with straights, anything with monster grip is great on tight tracks etc etc).
The PI could be better just by having a rating for each track layout as opposed to one general rating (GT suffers the same problem with its PP system). What the numbers and classes end up being don’t matter too much as long as there are more than one in each so there is some variety.

[Dadiodude]

@funky_dunk_1977

@SatNiteEduardo

Some have said it would not work but I think we need some form of dynamic PI. When a car clearly becomes leaderboard material it is somehow handicapped.

In some racing series if one car dominates it gets some form of parity adjustment.

One of the problems with the PI that causes LB cars is that the PI is calculated on a generic track (used to be similar to Silverstone) but that means that on certain tracks certain cars will be much stronger due to their particular strengths and weaknesses (high power cars are good with straights, anything with monster grip is great on tight tracks etc etc).
The PI could be better just by having a rating for each track layout as opposed to one general rating (GT suffers the same problem with its PP system). What the numbers and classes end up being don’t matter too much as long as there are more than one in each so there is some variety.

I don’t think that it’s the PI system that’s terribly wrong. You have to use something as a datum. For me, if they trash the unrealistic upgrades (engine and drive) that couldn’t/wouldn’t exist in the real world, the cars and their relative performance would be a lot more believable. You’ll always have LB cars because something will inevitably be quickest on a specific track but I’d like to see them running standard (albeit tuned) engines and the correct driven axels.

[SatNiteEduardo]

@Dadiodude

I don’t think that it’s the PI system that’s terribly wrong. You have to use something as a datum. For me, if they trash the unrealistic upgrades (engine and drive) that couldn’t/wouldn’t exist in the real world, the cars and their relative performance would be a lot more believable. You’ll always have LB cars because something will inevitably be quickest on a specific track but I’d like to see them running standard (albeit tuned) engines and the correct driven axels.

Drivetrain and engine changes do happen in the real world though.

It gets back to whether this is a driving / racing game or a hotrodding game.

In the FM games I would be ok with no direvtrain swaps and somewhat tame engine swaps.

Horizon could be the hotrodding game.

Going back to FM4 type engines swaps would do me but people were not happy so they got lots of engine swaps in FM5.

[funky_dunk_1977]

@Dadiodude

@funky_dunk_1977

@SatNiteEduardo

Some have said it would not work but I think we need some form of dynamic PI. When a car clearly becomes leaderboard material it is somehow handicapped.

In some racing series if one car dominates it gets some form of parity adjustment.

One of the problems with the PI that causes LB cars is that the PI is calculated on a generic track (used to be similar to Silverstone) but that means that on certain tracks certain cars will be much stronger due to their particular strengths and weaknesses (high power cars are good with straights, anything with monster grip is great on tight tracks etc etc).
The PI could be better just by having a rating for each track layout as opposed to one general rating (GT suffers the same problem with its PP system). What the numbers and classes end up being don’t matter too much as long as there are more than one in each so there is some variety.

I don’t think that it’s the PI system that’s terribly wrong. You have to use something as a datum. For me, if they trash the unrealistic upgrades (engine and drive) that couldn’t/wouldn’t exist in the real world, the cars and their relative performance would be a lot more believable. You’ll always have LB cars because something will inevitably be quickest on a specific track but I’d like to see them running standard (albeit tuned) engines and the correct driven axels.

The point of the PI system is create a level playing field (like parity rules in real racing) - the LB cars are created because the PI system is a one size fits all solution - if it was more detailed (different PI for each track layout for example) then the LB issue would be far less of a problem and would mean the ünrealistic upgrades were suitably penalised in the PI system.
Why do some complain about unrealistic engine changes (the Chev small block is routinely used in almost anything - have a mechanic friends whos 16 year old son is putting an LS1 into a KE20 Corolla - a burnout car but still doable just not able to be registered here - change in engine size is too much to pass rego), but then others want 900HP Evos (which while they exist are not reliable or useful on a race track courtesy of massive lag and huge stresses one engines and drivetrains).The upgrades are a part of the Forza formula and while not everyone gets what they want (and some things are over powered) they are a part of the game that makes Forza what it is - if th Pi system was more accurate then it wouldn’t matter what each person chose to use as the results would be on par.

[SoulFire_XP]

Personally I felt Horizon 2s was pretty balanced almost any car could be competitive especially i you don’t include LB cars. what I want to see back though is a nerf to PI calculation for speed there too many cars that struggle due to a high PI caused by high speed which is irrelevant for the average track resulting in more modern car in particular german luxury and grand tourers like astons losing out big time making them very hard to use online

In regards t engine swaps I felt horizon 2 got it right you could get aways both ways fine enough I felt for many cars just please nerf the rally and 5.7 v8 im sick of them in FM5

[Skreamies]

I’m all for bringing back Forza Motorsport 2’s PI selection. I personally liked the way it was set up as well as what cars were in which classes.

[ECT_LOCO_F355]

I think everybody should start the race then it suddenly ends and ice cream for everybody. Maybe a pony or trophy… don’t know might not be enough. Classes need requirements. I.E. B class you need sport tires/and or a race transmission. Require builds to be similar within a class of cars. This should help limit the pi advantage. If all race trans are worth 5 pi no matter car, could really help bridge that gap.