I’ll just leave this here.
Yet, on the other side, the average muscle car owned by the majority of people would be humiliated by most modern V6 family sedans in every measure of performance. It’s amazing how fast modern cars are. SRT just announced the 707hp Hellcat!!!
If by “average” and “majority” you mean “low end” or “rotted out”, then yeah. Otherwise you’re completely wrong, in fact, if a you find a person who’s driving a '74 Nova and they have as much in that car as an average V6 family car from a dealership; you’re gonna loose your butt in a race. I promise you that.
And cars like the new SS, Z28 or ZL1 Camaro; Hellcat Hemi, and Shelby GT500 aren’t muscle cars by definition, because they’re not “affordable”.
By average I mean the mainstream performance version of a particular car. For instance, the most popular Camaro is the V6. The mainstream “performance” version is the SS. The ZL1 and Z28 get all the headlines, and will be remembered like the fire breathers of yore, but it is specious to think every single Camaro is a ZL1. Just like it is specious to think that every single Coronet or Cuda performed like the cars in your video.
As for the Nova. As I said before, my friend in high school had a 72. It’s large amount of torque made it effortless to drive at around town speeds and even up to highway speeds (and with a great V8 sound track), but that doesn’t mean it was very “fast” despite being able to press you into your seat…for a time at least. With regards to the 74 Nova, I don’t really know why you mention that car, but let’s run with it.
The TOP engine in the 74 Nova was a 350 V8 that made 185hp and a stratospheric 4,000 rpm with 270 lb-ft of torque at 2,600 rpm. Keep in mind this is SAE net horsepower and not the inflated SAE gross. I couldn’t find 74 Nova V8 weights. But to give it every advantage, the LIGHTEST V6 Nova I found weighs about 3,300 lbs, giving a power to weight ratio of about 17.83.
The modern V6 Toyota Camry V6 has 268 hp @ 6,200 rpm and 248 lb-ft of torque @ 4,700 rpm. It weighs about 3,400 lbs, giving a power to weight ratio of about 12.68.
1/4 mile times are of course all over the place. but Car and Driver ran the Camry at 14.3 sec @ 101 mph. The average 74 Nova times for the 350 I found were roughly high 16’s at roughly 80 mph…no comparison. It takes cars like the 68 Nova SS 396 (hardly the “average” version) to pip the Camry.
To be completely fair to muscle cars, it is very hard to come up with baseline performance numbers for multiple reasons. A big reason that most people don’t think of is that the engines ran leaded gas with higher octane than modern gasoline, which makes testing with modern equipment more complicated. The tires didn’t stick as well as modern tires. They had carburetors that needed to be regularly adjusted to give maximum performance, so state of tune is always a question. And also gross horsepower ratings are greatly inflated compared to modern measurements, it doesn’t help that several horsepower numbers were either over or under rated. Personally I’m going off of 1/4 mile trap speed, since it gives the best indication of power without regards to traction. And in that measure the reported “stock” traps speeds of many of the TOP muscle cars in publications of the day (not the rare earth unicorns) are comparable to those of the afore mentioned V6 Camry.
You missed the whole point of the post, what a '74 Nova came from factory and what it can have with only minor investments makes a world of difference. Using the '74 Nova as an example, that 185 HP can be easily doubled with just a cam and head swap, and we’re not talking about any extremes either. I had a 402 that was going into my 74 Chevelle, that engine in stock form made 240HP, after coming across a set of closed chambered heads from a 427, and a buying a modest street camshaft, and a set of headers put that engine within the ballpark of 400HP for what was just about $1,000 in investments.
Well if you’re talking mods that’s a completely different ballgame. I thought my post was pretty clear that it was talking when both cars are stock.
If you want to get technical “average” muscle cars don’t exist, because the “Muscle Car” is a performance variant of these specific cars. A Chevelle/Malibu isn’t a Muscle Car unless it came from the factory
with performance options; or until someone modifies it and makes a performance car out of it. Just because it’s a Camaro, Cuda, Mustang or Cuda (and etc) doesn’t mean it was or is a Muscle Car. And generally most “muscle cars” after 1972 is generally disqualified from comparison because of new restrictions and the gas shortage that killed the performance of these cars.
umm…
“Camaro, 'Cuda, and Mustang” aren’t muscle cars… they’re Pony Cars actually. Very different animals than a full-framed GTO or Chevelle SS.
I agree it’s about the engine package and choice that makes a muscle car. Without the tri-power, it’s just a LeMans… not a GTO. Honestly, only American cars you can really compare to exotics of the era are simply the Cobra 427SC, Daytona Coupe, Corvette, and Ford GT. The rest don’t come close by a long shot. I’ve been in and around them myself. I also had the pleasure of going for a ride in a 60s 911, a Lamborghini Miura, and some sort of red sexy Ferrari.
Muscle Cars like the Chevelle SS LS6 454, Plymouth Roadrunner 440/6, or Ford Gran Turinos only really could do one thing - go down a 1/4 mile in their time relatively fast, and for not too much money. They can’t stop, they can’t turn. stock. they were cheap, and fun. That was the point of them back then. Corvette was in a different league altogether, let alone Shelby AC cars.
Biggest difference between a Muscle Car stock, and Shelbys or Vettes is that the muscle car couldn’t handle too well for beans, but rode nice with their longer wheelbase and could launch harder.
A 1967 Miura could stop, turn, and accelerate to basically “ludicrous speeds” for her time. Big difference.
Doesn’t mean a muscle car is crap though. They just are what they are. No point in pretending they’re something else. They’re 4000lb beasts that make your chest hurt and throw your back 3" deep in the seat from all the torque.
I know the difference between a Muscle Car and a Pony Car, I’m employing the blanket term of “Muscle Car” for ease of discussion.
As long as you’re sticking to same era cars, you can compare an era Muscle Car or Pony Car to era exotics.
1967 Chevrolet Chevelle SS
MSRP: $2,825
Engine: 396 Ci Big Block V8 (6489 cc / 6.5L)
375 HP @ 5,600 RPM
415 LB-FT Torque @ 3,600 RPM
3,400 lbs
0-60 in 6.5 seconds
8 - 10 MPG
vs
1967 Lamborgini Miura
MSRP: $13,700
Engine: 239 Ci V-12 (3929cc / 3.9L)
350 HP @ 7,000 RPM
262 LB-FT Torque @ 5,000 RPM
2,500 lbs
0-60 in 7.0 seconds
11 - 13 MPG
While the Chevelle doesn’t have the top speed, cornering ability or braking ability, it has a quicker 0-60 time at a very tiny fraction of the cost of the Miura, is a much more comfortable ride and weighs almost 1,000 lbs more. And I’d wager that a '67 Chevelle could be good for about 150 MPH with the right gear ratio, which would make the Lambo’s top speed over it negligible at 170 MPH.
that’s funny. Because no you really cannot. The full-frame chassis vs unibody… 4 link vs leaf springs, or coils vs macphersons Pony Cars are night and day from a Muscle Car. The weight, the balance, the way they apply that power to the road, is all completely different.
Comparing a Chevelle to a Camaro, or comparing a GTO to a Firebird, or a Mustang to a Turino is pretty much comparing apples to oranges. ESPECIALLY on the track.
beyond that, I agree 100% with what you posted. I’ve daily driven a 1969 El Camino… and would love to own a Miura. Fact is I could afford the El Camino! 
What I find funny is that you say I can’t, when I did.
I’m talking about comparing pony cars AS muscle cars. It’s honestly like comparing a Muira to a Chevelle.
the comparisons can be made, but the difference is there. Pony cars are vastly different than a muscle car. Taking a 67 427 Chevelle SS at Sebring, vs a 1969 Camaro z28 is almost as different as driving that Muira I bet. I haven’t driven a Muira, but I’ve driven a Ford GT replica with a 302 (specc’d the same as originals). Trust me, they’re different animals.
and on that note, I’ll happily take a Shelby Daytona, GT, or even a BOSS 302 on the track against anything of their respective eras (early 60s, late 60s, or early 70s) of any nationality. It’s not I think they’re superior, they’re just what I personally know how to drive and know where the limits are, and what driving line suits them.
sorry again for the mixup. I was talking about the assumption that a Pony Car is similar enough to a Muscle Car, when they aren’t. Like, at all.
now, when it comes to modifications and such… it really depends on how far one wants to go. I personally think Forza does a pretty good job with their “rating scale” as of late (haven’t played 5). For example, placing upgraded shocks, suspension, and brakes on a Mercury Cougar XR7 with nothing done to the engine, makes for a wicked mean track car.
there are always options and such, even in the real world. It’s also why I race “spec.” Everything is regulated, so it’s driver against driver, rather than car vs car. On that note, the Cobra I’m building, let alone for the cost, should be quite the little hellion.
I’d honestly love to see any muscle car, that isn’t already a collectible (HEMI, Shelby, etc don’t count) that are “stock.”
Also, his 74 Chevelle, all he changed were to heads that WERE stock. Just not for his year 
By 74, with all the SMOG BS issues, the compression ratios went to the crapper. Same thing with my 79 Trans Am. I just swapped on a set of heads, intake, and cam from a 72 400 Ponty… and yep, instant gratification of back to about 400HP on the fly.
Hey all, first post, but long-time driver in Forza, and the real world on real tracks.
In the beginning, I was all about American made, because my Mom’s side of the family has worked in the automotive industry, Ford in particular, since its inception. My Dad, bought a 1969 Dodge Charger RT back in 71… traded it for a truck back in 74
I had a 1969 El Camino with it’s big small block that could run low 11s at Pamona, and then after some re-tuning could also almost (never could get her there) grab at +1 G in the skid. Mind you, just like in the game, the stock geometry, shocks, and springs did NOT get her there. It took a bunch of work, but so rewarding doing it. The most rewarding thing about that car, as a driver, actually came when I de-tuned her timing a little, and changed out her rear 4.11 gears for an Impala’s 2.90-somethings all for $150 at the swap meet. She was still fast, more than fast enough on the freeway, and yet now could get a somewhat reasonable 12 mpg with her 3-speed non-overdrive automatic… if I could keep my foot out of her.
Then I got to see that low 11s in the quarter are STILL low 11s in the quarter being driven every day. How did I learn this?
I was beat getting on the freeway. we never did go above 75-80 mph or so, but I and my big small block wanted to flex my muscle at this cute little Volkswagen Bettle that had revved at me. He practically blew the doors off of me. Turns out, even though he was a 1965 Beetle on the outside, he was more akin to a stripped out Porsche GT2 911 on the inside!
I should have paid more attention to those wheels.
10 years later, (long story) I lost my Elky. Something I swore would never happen, but in the end life and reality has a funny way with things.
long story short of it - I’ve been in RX-7s (my favorite Japanese car), Nissan Skylines (maybe my other favorite Japanese car), Aston Martins, Jaguars, Ferraris, Lamborghini (what a fun honeymoon that was!) Porsches, and one BMW, and quite a few VW Beetles since then. I’d happily own any of them. I’ve also been in my buddy’s HEMI Superbee, a Roadrunner, Barracuda, Mustangs old and new, Camaros, etc. I’d happily own most of them too. Some were too radical for my taste, and plenty of both import and American modern cars don’t add up to anything that’s ever been hand-built. It’s just a fact.
but all of those have price-tags that reflect being hand-built as well. Be they a custom 1956 Ford F-100, a numbers matching Shelby GT500KR, or a Ferrari California or Aston Martin One-77.
not to sound cliche now, after all these years… but a hand-built 10 second car that can stop, turn, and accelerate hard is still a 10 second car that can blow the doors off of almost anything else in its county. I live out in the country now, surrounded more by King Ranches and Laramie Longhorns. Needless to say, when I saw that C7 drive by, all gorgeous in whatever they call “Marina Blue” now, yeah… I almost crashed. It was the same that day the black Ferrari drove through town on its way to the Grand Canyon.
I don’t get the “this brand is better than that brand because I say so” stuff. I’ll happily let a Ferrari, Porsche, Aston Martin, McLaren (Lord if I ever see one of those again) or a Beetle happily park next to me and my now… 1 ton GMC truck 4x4, or my old Barracuda, or my F5 1965 “coupe” lol :D. Personally, I love the sound of American V8s… but a Ferrari V8 or V10 ain’t bad either. Neither is a cute little 2100cc sticking in the back of a Spyder or a Baja Bug.
I just enjoy the cars. And as Jeremy Clarkson said in Forza 4’s intro… “we’re an endangered species, you and me.”
As for “too many muscle cars, or too many Ferraris” (is there really such a thing as either? YouTube goes seem to think so, scary) I’ll take all the cars I can get in any Forza game. Or my barn, for that matter too.
You can’t compare Apples to Oranges.
My brother drives a 1965 Mustang. I drive a 70’s Fairlady Z.
He soars off on the straights. I leap by on the turns.
His V8 sets car alarms off and rumbles the earth. My Inline Six purrs by and sounds like a Vintage racer.
His car pushes 250 to the wheels and gets 12mpg. My car pushes 150 to the wheels and gets 20mpg.
Both are great in their own ways. You can’t compare the two the same way.
I compete in Historic Racing in a Shelby GT350 (I’ve posted vids on here before) and I love muscle cars, but I also love old Japanese sports cars. Different wine for a different dine.