I'm going to give a few tips about passing since many people can't seem to get it

Forza Motorsport Legacy Motorsport FM7 Discussion
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The first and most important rule is that there are 2 lines on the track, the inside line and the outside line. If you are on the inside line STAY on the inside line and don’t exit the corner wide, and vice versa for the outside line. Do not turn sharply into the inside line smashing the other driver off their line.

When you are on the inside line and you are taking the corner too sharply, you have to slow down even more or your car will smash the other person off the track, this should be simple logic but people don’t get it.

If you are too close to the inside line, you cannot make that pass and in fact, you are likely on your opponents line or he/she is driving incorrectly and not taking the outside line forcing you to be there. In either situation, as much as it sucks to be in that position, forfeit the fight and try again. All that will happen if you do this is a wreck and thankfully this game doesn’t penalize you for it, but if you race in clean lobbies or clans, you will be penalized for this especially if you are not even at the door to the car next to you.

Next be mindful of all cars around you. I race in the cockpit view and never have a problem with people who know how and when to maintain their lines. Never assume that you have fully passed a car until you have actually passed it. Pay attention to cars coming up to you from behind especially if you know they have more handling than you do and they are on your tail as they will likely take the inside line (albeit, most of the time incorrectly as well).

If there is a small gap, it does not mean to shove yourself into it, force your opponent off their line and pass them. That’s not how passing works. Just because there is a small gap, it does not mean that you can slot yourself into it. On some corners, that gap is needed to turn, and it will end up as I stated before with you jutting out smashing people off the track. Be mindful of the track layout and how to pass.

Know the no passing zones. Sometimes you should never initiate a pass ie. trying to pass on a chicane is dumb, not only is it dumb, it slows you both down and will likely cause a wreck unless you slow down to the point where attempting the pass is pointless. On near 90 degree corners is another example. You do not attempt to take the inside line because you need as much track space available just to get the car to turn. Other examples being the first corner on sonoma, if you don’t have the inside line it’s suggested that you back off because not only will you not complete the pass you’re asking to run yourself off the course, or the first corner on SPA you can pass here but likely not side by side. It can be done but is normally not worth it, you generally will beat your opponent at the end of the turn rather than the beginning and like most corners, one line should give way to the other (assuming both players are competent) and generally that will be the outside line because the only chance that line has of taking the position is with a cutback (again assuming both players are competent, this won’t happen with defensive driving). etc. Learn the passing zones and when to take a risk and when not to. Wrecking out your opponents is not okay.

Next, bumping people from behind when they are turning and taking their position afterwards is also not okay. You shoved them off their line, don’t take a position that you didn’t legally take.

Try to remember that there is an outside line. If a car with less handling is giving you problems then take the outside line. Chances are for them to defend the inside line they will have to slow down even more than normal giving you a clean chance to overtake.

Stop lunging at people. If you aren’t even at the tail of the car in front of you, it’s their line and you do not have the right to take the inside line. Period. I’m getting sick and tired of this. I’ve seen people try to out brake me from 3-4 car lengths away. That’s never going to happen no matter how bad the opponents brakes are.

Take a look at the cars your opponents are using, take note of who is using a speed, average, or handling build. This will give you an idea as to whether or not you can out brake them in the first place. I tend to make my cars lightweight which drastically increases their braking efficiency. I’ve had many try to out brake me and completely miss the corner. You cannot out brake someone just because you want to, stop doing it.

Just because you catch up to someone does not give you the right to pass them. Pass them cleanly or don’t do it at all. Ruining someone else’s race is not okay, and it never will be. This isn’t hot lapping it’s racing. If you’re bad at getting around someone who is driving defensively then practice the basics of passing that I listed above and below and you’ll be able to pass those people. Of course it’s harder to pass better drivers, but when driving defensively you almost always go slower than you normally would. That is a passing opportunity.

If someone is in the middle of the track, they are taking the inside line, you are to take the outside line, not go further on the inside, this will again, result in your car not being able to take the turn and wrecking the opposing driver.

Obviously overtaking someone from going off the track isn’t okay either. You’ll be surprised at how many times I’ve been lunged and overtaken by people cutting the track of all skill levels and it’s seriously making me rethink that the penalty system is bad in its current state. There should be clear and cut punishments for track cutting and I now agree with the opinion that Turn 10 has set the boundaries and we are to follow them, even if they are too strict at times. Adjust your line and accommodate them instead.

If you see that someone is going wide, do not dive bomb them, that is their line and unless you are close enough (no more than one cars lengths away) you will block their line in doing so and will cause a collision where you will be at fault. If their normal line is to go wide then that is their line, and you are to respect that line.

Keep in mind that racing is a no contact sport, a little bit of rubbing is okay, anything more than that is not okay. If you would not do it in real life because it would cause a wreck, then don’t do it in a racing game, unless of course that game is about doing things like that such as wreckfest, burnout, flatout, etc. Practice your driving and your passing and the game will be better for everyone. The #1 thing that I see that people need to practice more is staying on their line whether it be the inside or outside line. If you ram someone out of their line, do not take their position, if you ram them off the track then stop and wait because you ruined their race.

Now, sometimes this isn’t your fault and you need to know when it is and is not your fault. Generally it’s obvious when it isn’t your fault, ie. a person brakes .3 to .5 seconds before you or anyone else should start braking. Unpredictable braking is bad both in game and in real life and causes accidents. Use your better judgement to determine if the accident was your fault or not. If a person brakes early but is near the braking line, it’s still your fault and that’s their line. Or if you are racing side by side on the inside and the opposing car turns into you and comes onto your line, etc. Determining who is at fault is usually obvious and mistakes do happen. Only rarely are mistakes not easy to point out who is at fault because general rules are followed such as:

It is the responsibility of the passing driver to make a safe and clean pass, not the person who is in front.

You are not allowed to pass someone on a corner unless you are near or at the door of the driver in front (again, this is barring that a car doesn’t have the brakes and you can out brake them such as a FS car being one car length ahead of you and you are a handling based car etc. There are exceptions to this rule but this is the general rule of thumb)

Knowing what the inside and outside lines are and staying on your line, if people did this there would be no issues, whatsoever with racing side by side. You do not get to accelerate at the same spot and end up on the outside line. You keep your line which is either the inside or the outside line.

Those are the 3 basic rules of passing that everyone should adhere to.

Also keep in mind that just because this is racing, that does not mean there is no tailgating. The definition of tail gating is cut and dry, and you can still tail gate in racing. Leave enough space for you and the person in front of you to brake or brake early to avoid a collision.

On a side note, if your car is hard to control and has a lot of wheel spin, I would first suggest fixing that issue before using that car or learn throttle control. If your car does have wheel spin and you are racing side by side with someone, accelerate later to avoid coming into contract with that person. Get your car as straight as possible before accelerating. Do NOT try to accelerate just because you see the person in front of you accelerating first. Don’t make that mistake and don’t be that guy. I strongly recommend that if you cause serious contact that you do not take that person(s) position because it is a dirty pass and no one likes a dirty driver.

Edit: I forgot one rule, you are only allowed to change your racing line ONE time and you cannot do so right before or during a braking zone. That is another basic rule of racing.

Also consider the first corner of a race a no passing zone. Consider it a yellow flag (this does not mean NEVER try to pass but avoid doing so to keep the race as clean as possible).

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If you have problems with knowing how to pass and corner rights etc. I personally like empty box’s explanation of how this works and how defensive driving works as well.

Know Your (Corner) Rights! (Sim Racing Tips) - YouTube


It’s how I can race in the cockpit without issues. I pay attention to who is around me on the track, follow these rules, and maintain my lines. Again, mistakes can happen, no one is perfect, but try to minimize them.

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Great Points all around … I also race in the Cockpit View. I believe this gives the true racing experience. Thanks for posting video links

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all great points. thx for posting!

saw the edit. while reading initially and was thinking what about f1 that has one move/line change to defend without interfering

one comment regarding this quote:

“There should be clear and cut punishments for track cutting and I now agree with the opinion that Turn 10 has set the boundaries and we are to follow them, even if they are too strict at times. Adjust your line and accommodate them instead.”

i posted the below in discord during the dev Q&A this past Monday for FRR:

Please review some of the track limits too. As frr is to achieve a better race environment, there are several that increase the likelihood of crashes: Prague chicane, VIR patriot (too pointy on several corners), and Lime Rock penultimate corner. These corners do not take into account the natural race lines and slow the corner that highly increases rear ending and needless collisions trying to keep a clean lap. Thx!

it’s all fine until you’re trying to run clean and others may not and the track limits works against us because the corner is so scuffed. we’ve had track limits since last summer with no edits/fixes to those tracks that were negatively impacted. i hope they reconsider and readdress the few tracks that need slight adjustments.

hope i didn’t hijack your thread as i agree with all of your points. :thumbs up :slight_smile:

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No problem, I love open discussion and we need these to continue moving forward as a community!

I agree with prague, the easiest fix is to actually make the corner a bit wider, either by making the bumps smaller (and preferably higher so they cannot be cut) or by directly making the road in the center wider for a higher speed to be maintained. I try to stay clean now and just slow down but most don’t.

Edit: FOr most tracks they are okay, but for some the limit needs to be stretched out to use the natural lines of racers and sometimes it’s natural to use the borders of tracks as well. Each track is different.

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I’ll keep adding tips as I remember or see things while I’m driving. If you are slower than someone else (and not as if in racing their speed and being slightly slower but legitimately slower) then don’t block them and let them pass. There is a difference between racing, and being a yahoo (use your imagination). The easiest way to tell if someone is faster is if they are constantly on your bumper (again, use your discretion, you know when someone is faster than you) , they close a one second+ gap in a single lap or less, they started in towards the front of the pack and got smashed off the track.

Be courteous, the race is not fun for either party if the faster driver is being held up and it usually ends badly. Yes, you are racing and positions should be earned, but do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Would you like to have a lemon in front of you the entire race and think you would be able to avoid a collision with said lemon? It’s a lot harder than people think.

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If the nose of your car touches the car in front of you and you did not have corner rights, you are in the wrong. Stop doing this, slot in behind the driver in front of you. Stop being dumb, stop causing wrecks. This is a penalty, and if you cause a wreck, a black flag and likely a suspension as well.

You either have the right to the corner or you do not. If you aren’t at the door/back wheel of the car in front, back off, it’s not your corner.

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Okay I’m going to save a few replays of my racing and go over some of the mistakes (to include my own if I see them) during the race to make this a bit easier to swallow and understand. I’ll probably start going over them around 7ish so they should be more entertaining than just reading words.

Edit: I got 2 good replays showing most of what I would like to show so I’m going to go over them now and they will probably be uploaded in 2 hours. I hope these vids will help understand what I’m talking about a bit as you watch my racing and others racing.

Nevermind, the game didn’t save the first one and the second one got corrupted somehow. I’m tired and I have to get up and finish out the school semester tomorrow so I’ll hit up some races and save the ones I want and send them your way by the end of this weekend.

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No offense you have wasted your time cause no noob or wreaker cares if they can’t race.

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Which is precisely why there should be driver ratings like GT Sport has, either that or actually give them temporary bans from online racing for repeated offenses.

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They may not, but not everyone is familiar with the unwritten rules of motorsport, so it would be helpful to them. Forza certainly has nothing in the game that teaches people to drive fairly.

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Preach. Last night I was driving GT3/LM cars in the endurance hopper. On short Road Atlanta. I was battling with a 2017 911 RSR most of the race. He usually had me on straights, or we were even. But I was out-braking him. And especially on the downward chicane I would catch him. He wouldn’t ever let me pass. And there were multiple times that I would very slightly hit him since my braking was just better and I could do it a lot later than him. (I had the M8 with upgraded brakes and all aero to cornering down force). There was one point I hit us both off the track at the final chicane after the long straight, as he broke way earlier than I was anticipating, and before I needed to. But I specifically didn’t pass him, because I didn’t want to he THAT guy. I let him keep his position, and we kept going. About halfway in the race I passed him. And kept the lead the rest of the race, albeit we battled heavily for it. He was never more than 200 feet behind me at any time. What REALLY irked me. Was at the end of the race, on the final turn on that track, on the final lap, we were neck and neck, but with me still ahead. He was clearly behind me, not next to me. As we all know, that turn is a wide turn. The Apex is to take it sharpish in, exit wide. Usually being on the left rumble strips as you cross the line, and get close to the tire wall. He last second tried to pass me on the OUTSIDE on this turn. Which obviously doesn’t work there. So naturally since it’s a wide turn, and I couldn’t turn in any sharper, he got pushed into the tirewall and spun out. And ended up losing not only 4th (the position we were battling for), but 5th as well. He then decided to message me that I “race dirty”. I do not race dirty. He just didn’t know how passing works. He never let me pass him when it was clear I was faster in turns, and then tried to overtake me wide, on a corner meant to be taken wide. And paid the price for it.

Last I checked, isn’t one of the first rules in racing to never overtake on the left? Hell, even in street driving I’m pretty sure it’s said not to in the driving tests (for left hand driving countries that is)

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You can pass on the left, you have to, that’s part of racing.

Sometimes people get heated, but sometimes people go slower to take defensive line which is why they appear slower than they actually are but not recognizing the track layout is dumb in my opinion. Happens on circuit of america all the time.

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Your inside/outside line argument implies that drivers enter and exit the corner two wide which is a bad idea in general. A better and safer tactic is to utilize early or late braking combined with an early or late apex based on your position.

The driver you are behind is under pressure to stay in front. If you have the time to apply pressure (following close without bumping or passing) you can build on that pressure. The driver in front will push themselves to stay in front and you are clearly faster since you are able to stay right behind while they are giving their best.

Eventually the driver in front will brake late for a corner which will cause them to take a wide and slow line. Instead of trying to stay next to them brake early, apex early and cross under them just past the apex. Clean pass and you will have 100ft on the other driver before the next turn.

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That strategy does not work with competent drivers. if you’re behind me and not beside me, then i won’t care at all what you do. Watch the second video that i posted that explains that. This might work on some, but on skilled drivers it’s just wasting time. in fact, there are specific strategies to increase the gap on people who do this and i use them often.

Edit: Also crossing over doesn’t work on me more than 90% of the time, don’t even try it, I know how to stick to my lines, and people find out the hard way when they are dealing with a more competent driver that those tricks don’t work. It’s like trying to use the quick win moves in chess that are easily blocked by a single pawn move. They just aren’t worth trying and you have to do different strategies against more skilled players. Unlike in other games, racing doesn’t work with the thought process of thinking that everyone is bad unless proven otherwise. If you REALLY want to get ahead and get GOOD at passing, assume that every driver is good unless proven otherwise and react like you should to pass more cleanly and efficiently. If it does turn out that they are bad then you can take advantage of that even if you were to assume that every player on the track is good. If you assume that every player on the track is bad, then when you race against competent racers you’ll have no idea how to pass them or you’ll waste time using a technique that will only work on incompetent drivers.

As I stated before as well, usually when driving defensively you drive a bit slower to make sure that you hit your marks and this is the REAL passing opportunity if possible. Driving against competent drivers is not like driving against drivers who are not as good.

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I agree with the braking part within reason. But when you can clearly see they are having to slow down just for you, it is etiquette to let them pass. Specifically that they are coming into turns much faster, and exiting faster, but having to over-brake because you are taking up the entire track going side to side or just downright the middle with no line. There’s a fine line between racing hard, and just blocking to be annoying.

I understand you do not want to give up your position, as racing is all about placing higher. But when you are impeding someone’s race and not letting them race to their abilities, because you simply don’t want to let them pass, that’s just ignorant and frustrating. Eventually that driver is going to stop caring and start nudging you a bit, at first to hint you the hint to move, then later because you aren’t showing etiquette, so why should they?

If I see someone is genuinely faster than me, and getting right on me be it in straights or turn, at the nearest straight, I will pull to the side, let off my gas, let them pass, and move on. Because clearly they are better than me. And have potential to do better than the position we are battling for.

I understand if it’s just 1 lap it happens, maybe you had a bad lap, or they had a phenomenal but rare lap. But when for 10 laps it happens on most to all turns, it’s clear they are faster, so just let them move on, you know?

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Passing someone, then getting directly in front of them to brake for the normal line is also NOT okay and it again, never will be. That’s violating the racing rules and changing your line at the braking zone. Expecting someone to compensate for that is asinine, so if you are wondering why people ram you for doing this, it’s because you changed your line at the last second and braked where they could not predict you to do so. Again, it is the passing drivers job to pass cleanly and follow the rules of racing.

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Here’s my first racing analysis, I’m going to make a series out of this and try to find a race or two whenever I play to analyze and upload. It will hopefully help me and others improve!

Here’s my first one:

I already have a second video but I have something else to do atm so it will either be done later tonight or tomorrow. Happy racing everyone!

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I get what you’re saying, and what you’re trying to do. And I agree. There are rules in racing. And those rules generally exist to protect the drivers from death, serious injury, or writing off a multi-million dollar vehicle. But, and I’m sure this won’t come as a shock to you:

Forza is a video game.

That’s not to argue, or invalidate what you say. You’ve still got a valid point. But driving a car in Forza is not at all like driving a car in real life. And driving a car on the road in real life is not at all like driving a car in a race. In real life, race car drivers are skillful, highly trained experts who spend years learning how to drive and race safely, and have to earn the right to be anywhere near the track. You will never see the kind of shenanigans you see in a Forza lobby in real life, because it would be a carrier ender at best. For them, the barrier of entry and the cost of failure are high. For us, the barrier of entry is the price of a triple A title, and the cost of failure is a few minuets time loss.

I get that Forza is a racing game, and is popular among the automotive set. That’s fair. I totally understand and appreciate that. And racing fans generally like their racing games to have some level of immersion, and to try to approach emulating real life racing. I get that.

I’m a ‘turn the key, and it goes’ kind of guy. I’ve been playing Forza for going on 3 years now, and I’ve learned a lot in that time, but I’m still not a car guy, or even a racing fan. I play video games. Sure, gamer culture and car culture have a fair amount of crossover, but not all of us come from car culture. Our exposure to racing is Mario Kart, Crazy Taxi, Grand Theft Auto, and the like. So applying the mindset of how to learn video games to how we learn racing games, or how we learn Forza specifically, has a very complicated learning curve. First, there are learning the basic controls. Then, learning the game mechanics. Incrementally turning off your assists, and increasing the difficulty as you progress. All this before you even have a chance to learn the concept of a racing line. I recently told a friend of mine “coming to a racing game like Forza from other video games, the first hardest thing to learn isn’t how to go fast, it’s how to slow down.” We come from a world where crashing into other drivers is often encouraged, drifting sometimes actually is the fastest way around a corner, and to do well, we learn to release the throttle as little as possible, and sometimes not at all. There is a lot of unlearning to go through before we’re even at the level to start taking your advise.

And it doesn’t help that the tutorial practically non-existent. Carrier mode is pretty much the only learning tool you have, and even that is bare bones. You start at 11th or 12th in the grid, and have to fight your way up to first within only 3 laps of an average sized circuit against filthy cheating AI opponents whose feelings don’t matter. You’re compelled to drive more aggressively than you might otherwise, because that’s the only way you have to to make any progress. I’m not saying it can’t be done. But from that video game mindset, you’ve got to do what’s necessary to get ahead. In order to win, you learn the tactics that work, and those are the skills that get honed. Those are the skills that get rewarded by the game mechanics. Not proper racing craft; dirty aggressive, unsportsmanlike driving.

Someone in the Horizon 4 forum said a while back something along the lines of “I play like a video game. First place belongs to me, and whoever’s there now is just in my way.”

And it’s true. And it may be fair in single player, but, it’s habit forming. The skills you learn in single player don’t translate to an online lobby. I will do things to an AI driver that I generally try to avoid doing to a real people in multiplayer. At least intentionally. It is literally a whole different game, and one with a whole new level of complexity. You’ve got to once more unlearn everything you’ve learned in single player just to not be a jerk. And that’s even before we take into consideration how to perform well.

And whenever someone like yourself comes along, and tries to explain all that, two typical responses are; “what’s the big deal? It’s only a video game.” or “Well, I don’t want to be that guy, but I have no idea how to do that, so maybe I just won’t bother with multiplayer.”

Guess which one you tend to meet in the lobbies. That’s not even taking into account the amateurs who don’t frequent forums like these, jump in blind, and try to plow through the pack and wreck everyone on turn 1 without ever having the opportunity to ignore your lengthy posts.

But you’re still right. Racing is a sport, and one with written and unwritten rules of safety and etiquette. And it’s no secret that online gamer culture could stand to take more of those to heart. So on that note, thanks for that. Sincerely; thanks.

But, it only piles another layer of complexity onto an already complex learning curve for a video game. One that is not taught, explained, or least of all enforced in any meaningful way in-game until recently. So I know you don’t mean to lay all this out as though it should be obvious, but that’s how it sometimes comes across.

I have learned a lot over the past few years. And I’ve watched all kinds of Youtube videos about technique, and I’ve tried to learn it. Even though I’m still not a huge racing fan, Forza has given me an appreciation for the craft, and if I’m going to be online at all, it behooves me to learn more. But at the same time it’s often easier to just give up and go back to single player where I can do what I have to to win, and the AI doesn’t complain.

So how do we bridge the gap?

I’ve seen your videos, and I’ve seen Empty Boxes’ before. And I’ve seen Chain Bear (not a Forza channel, but still interesting) and Super GT, and others who try to teach these concepts. And it makes sense in a way when you’re watching it. But theory and practice are two different things. I don’t know if it’s the complexity, or just the dry theory and jargon causing me to zone out, but they tend to reach a limit where they stop capturing my interest as a teaching tool. And being limited to game capture footage is not helping.

I don’t want to tell you how to run your Youtube channel. That’s up to you. But I wonder if a more instructive series might be better at getting the point across. I don’t know if you’re interested in taking it in this direction or not, or even if it would help. But I’ll offer it as a suggestion to do with what you will, or maybe someone else will take interest; Break it down to core concepts, teach those concepts, and how to put them into practice in simple, concise, bite sized pieces. Here’s what a racing line is. here’s what the inside line is. Here’s what the outside line is. Here’s how to take this kind of corner. Here’s how to take a hairpin. Here’s how to do it when there’s another car beside you. Here’s how to overtake. That sort of thing. Once that core concept is mastered then the viewer can come back and do another one. Precisely the kind of thing that Forza doesn’t do at all. I know there’s some of that out there already, but I’m not aware of any that are doing it in a way that keeps the momentum going. Your replay video seems like it might make a good intro to that sort of thing, but as a teaching tool, it’s a bit long, and it seems to me that replay mode at some point stops being conducive to demonstrating the point you’re trying to make.

Anyway, that’s my thoughts on it.

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For starters I’m going to have to say that if you don’t know these rules you shouldn’t be racing online with other people to begin with. These are basic rules to know and if you don’t know them you can’t legally race because you’re going to cause a wreck every single time.

Example, I had a speed built tune, the person behind me had a more handling based tune. That’s fine, the guy was 5 car lengths back on the straight on sebring before the really sharp right hander. The dude decided, he was going to try to out brake me and beat me to the corner. First off, that’s impossible as I stated before and it will never happen. On both occasions, he interfered with my line and smashed me off the track. He was nowhere near done braking and both times he did it, yes not just once, but TWO times, he smashed me off the track and continued to race like nothing happened.

This is why I don’t play forza motorsports anymore and I stopped playing for months. Playing this game is a waste of my time if you cannot even learn and follow the basic rules of racing. Why are you even playing a racing game like this if you don’t know how to race? I’m not trying to be mean, but it is what it is.

And don’t use that excuse of “it’s just a game and it’s not real life” there are many clubs, lobbies, etc. that use these rules. Feel free to smash people off the track as you like, but anywhere else and you will be kicked. Thankfully those drivers don’t have to deal with private lobbies, because their names would be taken, and they would be kicked on sight.

If you don’t know how to race well, then stop racing at 100%. Practically no one is racing at 100%, take it slow, give more space and give more room.

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