Developers, aren't you ashamed?

Dan Hauser (one half of the Hauser brothers who founded R*) left in 2020.

So, a certain segment of fans are worried GTA6 is going to be “Politically Correct” and try not to offend anybody, like the past games satire did.

I think Leslie Hauser, Dan’s brother who co-writes the GTA series, has to worry more about how the real world has become a parody of itself beyond what any fiction could have predicted considering how messed and absurd a lot of things have become since 2013.

I’m not going into details since we’re living it right now, but there have been some major (troubling) events that were always parodied in GTA culture and other dystopian fiction, but have became frighteningly real.

So, how Leslie address certain topics is up to him, but I’m not going to stay awake at night worrying about it since there are far more important things to actually get upset about other than how a video game does, or doesn’t portray the real world.

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No he’s not. I have a poll running on LinkedIn. So far, everyone agrees with me.

In business we talk about a quality triangle, Scope, Cost, and Time. They have to be balanced. Too much scope with too little time and money, quality suffers. Time, cost and scope are ALL controlled by leaders who are not writing the software, creating the art, doing the work.

Yep all people doing the work will make mistakes, but if they don’t have the time, money, and scope to find and fix the issues due to leadership, quality suffers.

I guarantee that the delays in FM8 were because leadership was constantly changing scope. Lazy sloppy programmers that don’t take pride in their work are always terminated at yearly reviews or during the year. So if the work going out the door is poor quality, except the for odd mistake that slips through I know it’s because leaders who are not developers aren’t giving the workers enough time, money, and controlling scope.

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They’re wrong then, or perhaps you asked the poll question in such a way as to get the answer you wanted.

To all intents and purposes, ‘devs’ or ‘developers’ means ‘Turn 10’ in the context of this thread and how it’s generally understood to mean on this forum and others when discussing the game. ‘The devs’ means Turn 10 which means the studio which developed the game, which means Chris Esaki. Anything else is absurd hair-splitting and pedantry.

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i`m curious to know why they would drop all the great features and content all the previous games had , a real Forza 8 would have been awesome .
If the reason is new management someone needs to get fired fast before they mess up more .

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Yeah, it was really simple to make a great new Forza. Basically remake FM4 with a new engine and graphics. Update and add new cars and tracks. Done.

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a winning formula for sure

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Oh yes, people working in the software industry are going to be wrong when you ask them as simple question. Sure

This debate is purely semantics. Management are not devs, cool. It’s also completely besides the point and adds nothing to this thread. When a layman says “developers” they’re often talking about the entire studio including the people above the ground level devs. And you know that.

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I have friends who worked on the Madden NFL, series at EA.

The process for big, AAA games like these depend almost entirely on the console generation cycles.

Once a new console is launched, the code base for that generation is locked and the brand new look of the game is prioritized because that’s what sells games to the masses more than improved game play. This is why every game in the current generation is shoehorning in Ray Tracing because this was the big new graphics feature marketed pre-Xbox Series X/S, and pre-PS5 launch back in 2020.

This is why a lot of franchises lose legacy features (to make way for shiny new graphics) because console development has a lot less RAM, VRAM and CPU budgets than a high-end PC. So, sacrifices have to be made.

This is also why the graphics presentation and even the UI don’t change much over a console generation, and especially in annualized releases like Madden, FIFA, F1, etc.

Also, many devs take the opportunity at the start of a new console generation to remove things that may be problematic under the hood, but were tied to legacy features from previous games. It’s a chance to start over and “build from the ground up”, right or wrong.

This is also why, if you notice, each annual version of a game… Like the F1 series by EA… Try and include new features for the hardcore players. But they have to chose their battles carefully because the higher ups want Ray Traced Global Illuminated race tracks while players want more realistic game play elements like better physics, or more My Team Career features, etc.

I know this seems like what everybody wants, and it’s what you want, but the realities of doing something like this aren’t as easy as it seems. Especially, if you apply what I just wrote about how console development works on big franchises.

Sacrifices have to be made in order to deliver a game that fulfills corporate requirements as well as artistic and technical goals set by the devs themselves.

Also, another thing you and many others might not want to hear, but Nostalgia is a doubled-edged sword as are the Rose Colored glasses that often come with it it.

I’m not saying FM4 was a bad game.

It’s a good game.

But it’s almost 13-years old.

Games have advanced in general, and I assume you have as well from the time when you first played it?

Meaning, what worked in the past doesn’t necessarily work in the modern day even if it seems like a sure fire bet. On top of this, many people are subconsciously trying to recapture a time in their lives when things were much simpler (due to age, and/or the world we live in) through a video game, but will quickly realize it wasn’t just the game, but the era they played it in, if they tried to play it, now.

This kind of Blind Nostalgia is what a lot of the NFS community is stuck in.

They praise Most Wanted, and the Underground games, but don’t realize a lot of their enjoyment came from the fact many of them were teenagers with a lot less life responsibilities, and the general gaming and pop-culture at the time centered around the original Fast & Furious movie before it became a ridiculous, action adventure series.

So, it was a one-two punch of both a positive time in ones life and a cultural zeitgeist that contributed to those two most beloved games being hailed as the Holy Grail of the series beyond them being good games for their times. That’s why it can never be recaptured for those desperately trying to do so by comparing every modern NFS game to those.

I hope you understand, I’m not trying to say you’re “wrong” for wanting a FM4 reboot?

I’m just trying to point out while it may seem like an easy win for T10 and MS to remake FM4… The realities surrounding that and the era (time in your life) when you played FM4 factored more heavily into your enjoyment than you might realize?

That’s why going backwards isn’t always the best strategy and often doesn’t end as well as we all hope. The success and enjoyment of a lot of things in life depends on the time it was released, and when we experienced it.

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True, but it’s the opposite of progress to make one tiny step forward in a couple of relatively minor areas combined with multiple big steps backwards in many major areas.

I think some people wish for a “reboot” simply because everything since has been worse when all the capabilities for advancement should have made things so much better.

They’ve been dangling the carrot of “potential” for too long without delivering experiences that reach anything remotely approaching that potential.

Hopes for a reboot strike me as a desperate plea to at least claw back what we had instead of every installment just stripping away more pieces of this series’ soul.

I don’t think they should “reboot” anything - they can & should do better than everything they’ve ever done… that’s what progress is, and they’ve had more than enough time to do it.

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Very well said.

I don’t think any of us truly want a remastered FM4. What I miss, at least, is the overall structure and the identity Forza had at the time. All the game systems just worked with each other, and there was progression without it being a grind. Sure, the graphics are better now, and the physics, but that doesn’t matter if the game around it is a worthless piece of junk.

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The funniest thing of all about the path you have taken to argue, is that you’re giving a perfect example of how out of touch with gamers many devs are :rofl: I mean come on now… If you honestly believe gamers don’t include guys like Chris Esaki when they say devs, things are far worse in the gaming industry than i thought. If however you’re just having some fun, well played! heh heh

And it matters because it’s not holding the right people accountable, the leaders. So when T10 reads this thread, they think like other people in the industry and will think you are upset with the people writing the software and NOT the leaders. So effectively, your message will not be heard.

If the people writing the software who are the developers who are not to blame read this they won’t be inspired because they’ll think you are blaming the wrong people and ignore you.

Don’t you get it?

By blaming the wrong people in the group, your message will not be heard. It will be ineffective. By not focusing on the actual problem, people in the team who are NOT to blame and might be able to make changes will not because why would they help people who are blindly blaming everyone with no compassion and empathy. Don’t you get it?

If the T10 leaders read this they’ll think “Great they are blaming the developers, not us the leaders”

Inspired to do what exactly? Stop arguing semantics, with gamers who ARE holding the right people accountable, by saying ‘Developers’? The best the people you’re talking about can do is start making indie games… You’re certainly not going to change things taking the course of action you are with the gamers in this thread… “Don’t YOU get it?!” …I’m going with you’re having some fun at this point. :rofl:

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Do you really think people from turn 10 read these comments and if they did does it really matter. The “leaders” could care less because they all got promoted and the “devs” got laid off because 90% of them are temporary employees. I personally blame all of them, the coders, the testers, the directors etc, they all worked on and mangled this game.

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stop the offtopic and get over it

there are some real good postings in here and you distracting the whole thread

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Can I give you 2 hearts instead of 1?

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If I had the disposable income, I would have this engraved on a large stone slab and ship it directly to Turn 10 so that it’s the first thing they see when they come in and the last thing they see when they leave.

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