Club66 Pre-66 Touring Car Greats

@unfairlane64

All the current builds are in line with cars running to current fia regs.

The Minis tyre widths are not far off the real widths allowed to be used (forzas first width upgrade is way to wide for a historic legal fia car).

All cars run to current fia allowances rather than exact period as in exact period none ofbthe cars ard even close to beinh able to compete with each other.

All cars run street brakes as a max upgrade, i know this a disc upgrade unfortuantely however in real life youd at least be able to put better pads, bigger drums and similar on the cars in period.

Roll bars are limited to match simialr upgrades seen on cars racing in historics, no car runs two adjustable roll bars.

Gearboxes are set to sport to allow for short ratios and long ratios to match the track, this is inline with real life cars where youd swap whole gears out/different teeth and ratios. From fod there where 4 different gearboxes available to be used in the cortinas for different events. Same for autodelta and the alfa romeo.

As we race with classes the mini as in period wont be as quick as a cortina but will have its own class to run in, likewise mustangs and the jag have individual classes.

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Ok, have it your way. But as I said, the Mini`s was raced on 165s back then and 175s must definetly be concidered as “close enough”. A street-Mini from back then would run 185s.

I did some quick setups based on my thinking and the cars ended up rather close in laptimes and wery compatible, only the Mustang was a little faster on more open tracks.

It’s hard to tell what racing versions of the 289 would have produced in '65-'66. Rules were pretty liberal back then. The HP version from Ford would have been 271 hp, but I’ve seen period correct variations (some close to the 347 c.i. max for the small windsor) crack 550 hp easy. If anything, those cars would have been restricted due to lifter/valve tech at the time.

Where did you get the information that 60s Mini-Coopers used 185 tyres?

Not if you knew these engines a bit. If you did some research you might have noticed that Carrol Shelby was able to pick 320hp ot of the 289. Fthe team behind the GT40mk1 was able to pull out 380hp by custom-building a raceintake where they used four twinport Webers.

There were no aftermarked-parts back then, just stock parts and craftwork.

About tyrewidth; the Mk1 Cortinas came with 155s back then, but the hotted up ingame-version runs 185s. And you want to run Minis on 145s against this? Wake up.

“Where did you get the information that 60s Mini-Coopers used 185 tyres?”

Get the info? I was there and know the cars

So now the privateers running 289 Mustangs in a British GT series all had GT40 Mk1 engines? You can’t be serious in comparing the cars that ran in this series to GT40s of any iteration. Shelby had Ford money behind him, and Ford R&D.

As for the aftermarket, well…You mention Weber carbs (an aftermarket company) then say the aftermarket didn’t exist…
Lets run down the list of aftermarket manufacturers that did exist at that time.

Holley Carbs - Founded 1905
Crane Cams - Founded 1953
Halibrand wheels (found on Cobras and GT40s) - Founded in 1947
Eibach suspension components - Founded 1951
Koni suspension components - Started making “racing” equipment in 1955. Founded in 1857
Spicer Universal Joint Manufacturing Company (Now known as Dana Inc.) - Founded in 1905

This is just a small list of companies that existed in 1965 and would have been used in the Mustangs in question.

But hey, maybe if you did a bit of research, you would know this…

Oh okay, I’m convinced by that.

The cars we are running are as they race/close to as they race now.

Mustangs have seen serious development in recent years, at one point they fell behind the falcons but it was quickly pointed out that a lot of falcons where running illegal manifolds, all of a suddenbthe mustangs back to being the preffered top dog in pre 66 touring cars.

The mustang is the dominent car in touring cars (falcon is a close 2nd), the only way the smaller cars beat the mustang is due to the brake and tires fading in longer races in real life, skmething not doable in forza.

The mini’s are in the mini class in the same way no mini racing now can beat a cortina in a pre 66 masters touring car race with simialr driver ability. Nick swift is one of the top mini racers out there today but he struggles to find himself winning a race outright even in the under 2litre pre66 series.

Hence we race classes. In period these cars also would never have been directly competitive on pace, in endurance things such as fuel, reliability, brake and tire wear ment that minis could win bathurst for example.

So no the cars don’t compete like for like but just like in real life a great driver in any cars can find himself scrapping with cars from a higher class.

Here is an example of the racing we are replicating

Hope that helps with understanding the builds being the way they are.

And I am aware the cortina in forza motorsport is clearly not a stock car with its tites hence we run less power than a FIA car probably makes (200hp) is often quoted as being a competitive lotus twin cam engine for 1600 elans and cortinas in the fia europe championships

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This was what I found based on the fia legal control tyres that people seem to run use most.

The alfa and cortina seem a little to wide and the mustang i had to do some guessing with. All of these have been talen from pre 66 cars being built to the regs im trying to base the series around.

However with the below and after testing I found that some of the cars felt like they are on rails and also it becomes another difficult thing to regulate and takes some of the cars away from homologated weights.

Mini
500L10 Dunlop CR65 - 165mm

Alfa Romeo
Front 500m14 Dunlop CR65 - 187mm
Rear 550m14 Dunlop CR65 - 228mm

Lotus Cortina
Front 450M13 DUNLOP CR65 172mm
Rear 525M13 DUNLOP CR65 210mm

Ford Mustang
Front 600L15 Dunlop - CR65 224
Rear 650L15 Dunlop - Cr65 239mm

The jaguar i am really struggling to find anything for.

Also i am aware that even at an event theres still plenty of rule bendjng going on, goodwood in recent cortina only race half the cars where actually found to not be to pre 66 regulation

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Where do you get this from? You`re misunderstanding my post all the way

These are the officially regulated tyres for fia pre 66 touring cars raced in europe under the fia appendix k regulations.

So the cars that race at goodwood, spa 6 hours the masters series currently.

Appendix K exists to regulate all pre 66 cars, GT, Sports and touring with guidelines on what changes and modifucations can be made. Most of the papers are based on the original documents of the period.

A large number of these regulations often state parts must use same fitment positions, same materials and sikilar structure points, hence back in the day a lot of people custom built there own parts to improvebthe cars.

Engines often had limited boring and displacment changes. However they had to be the same original block. Gearboxes could have different ratios homologated if made by the manufacture however final drives and diffs could be interchanged for again sizes manuafctured by the factory or custom built units to the same patterns

Bodywork could have slight changes (now on a car to get a htp you ha e to provide proof that body modification was used on a car raced in period in an international event, a good example the tvr griffiths with the widebody)

A car here in europe has to get a passport or htp to be able to race in fia sanctioned historic events.

A lot of these cars have had a lot of development and as modern engjneering has allowed better tolerances and nore efficient design they are far faster than they where in period.

It is difficult to really know what was done in period as regulations where quite lose as nearly every part could be remade and custom built to better than the factory car and scrutineering was not as strict as it is now.

As forza we dont really have as much control over individual parts i have made the builds hit realistic performance numbers for the cars based on real fia cars performance.

I have looked at dyno sheets for correct cars to find out hp and torque fugures.

The weights are as close as possible to the homolgated minimum weights for the cars

I have tried to avoid carbon fibre driveshafts and upgrading brakes to discs, street isnt really clear what it does, sport definitely mentions disc upgrade so we have steered clear of that.

Most cars in period did fit beefy stronger anti roll bars hence the upgrades we have made tonours, the rquirement in period was that it had to be patterned by the manufacture and produced on a set number of vehicles, often works back door rally/race cars, check bmc competitions department catolog for all sorts of goodies for a mini, mg or healey.

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10 entries signed up so far mainly for the 2 litre class, the cortina being the most popular car.

Several of our mini drivers are also entered while we have a couple jaguars also on the list.

Were looking for more racers interested in running classic tohring cars, especially in the big banger classes with the Mustang and Jaguar classes.

Any questions please ask or join the discord where our members will be happybto help

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Race 1 tonight.

The cortina/alfa class is popular with several drivers running the cortina. The rarer more exotic alfa is represented to.

Two Mustangs are on the provisional entry as well as 2 jaguars, while several of our mini monday competitors are bringing their minis out for another race this week.

The prize has also arrived for the overall champion.

Scalextric Mustang

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Great race for round 1.

3 cortinas
5 mini
1 alfa
1 mustang.

Great battles including the minis podium only being decided on the final turn, we had 1 roll over for myself (again).

The mustang dominated as to be expected but without direct rivals on the track trippul leads tge title for points

Hard charger results coming soon

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Points after round 1

Overall Championship

1st Trippul G 14 Points (win, pole and FL)
Joint 2nd Thatcargeek 12 Points (win)
Joint 2nd CGC Retro 12 Points (2nd, pole and FL)
4th Banovsky 10 points (2nd)
Joint 5th Sniffly Grunt 8 points (3rd)
Joint 5th Le Machin 8 points (3rd)
Joint 7th Mcflufferten - 7 points (4th)
Joint 7th EamonEejit- 7 points (4th)
Joint 7th Tougemistro - 7 points (win, pole and FL, 1/2 points)
10th VintageScratch 1 point (DNF Internet)

Hard Charger championship

1st TrippulG - 12 points
2nd Tougemistro - 10 points
3rd Thatcargeek - 8 points
4th CGC Retro - 7 points
5th Snifflygrunt - 6 points
6th Banovsky - 5 points
7th Le machin - 4 points
8th Mcflufferten- 3 points
9th Eamonejit - 2 points
10th VintageScratch - 1 point

Class A1 (Mustang)
Tougemistro - 7 Points

Class B1 (2 litre)
1st Trippul G - 14 Points
2nd Banovsky - 10 Points
3rd Le Machin - 8 Points
4th Eamonejit - 7 Points

Class C1 (Mini)
1st - Thatcargeek - 12 points
1st - CGC Retro - 12 Points
3rd - Snifflygrunt - 8 points
4th - Mcflufferten- 7 Points
5th - Vintagescratch - 1 Point

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That’s a lot to keep track of, especially considering you’re running the Mini Mondays championship as well. Just wanted to say thanks again for all your work in organizing this and keeping it all running. I know it’s not easy, and it’s very much appreciated. I don’t think I’d have spent half the time i have in the game if it wasn’t for having found this club.

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No problem at all TrippulG, good thing i enjoy a spreadsheet






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One of the prizes has arrived

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