Build and tune vs driver skill

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I’ve been an amateur tuner for a while and have experienced some success.

  • My question is; does having a good tune increase your driving skill?

I’ve found that a better tune can shave your lap times and also keep you honest in holding lines etc in races. But I’ve noticed that as I play more, my skill improves ( incrementally) and old tunes don’t cut the mustard anymore. Then if I adjust the old tune I recover lap times etc, until my skill gets better again.

  • This leads me to another question (that probably has history on this forum); how well do you know you’re driving skill if you use someone else’s tune? Can you tune regardless hoping it will fit someone’s skill? If so, what should that player do when they outgrow that tune?

The reason for this long question is that I see many people running with others (usually top tuners) set ups - BUT - they’re not quick or controlled. It can’t be the tune, can it?

Just as a sign off (and I know I’m preaching to the converted) but running my own tune is very satisfactory despite it being a real time eater.

Apologies if this is a regurgitated topic.

jdhu

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The really fast guys will always be faster than regular guys no matter which build or tune.

I think it is a common sense that following aspects are most relevant to lap time (with decreasing importance):

  • driver skill (several seconds per lap)
  • build (up to a second per lap)
  • tune (some tenths per lap)

As for interdependence between driving skill and tuning skill: from my own experience the better driver you are the better tuner you can be. However there is ceiling: in order to be a really good tuner you don’t have to be one of the top fast guys, but you have to be decently fast.

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Hi JD,

Great questions! :slight_smile:

First of all, fifty makes great points. I totally agree with them. Some of those guys on the top of the LB could probably drive a bathtub with training wheels and beat me! LOL!

Also, check out fifty’s tuning guide. He has some great insights into Forza tuning!

“Does having a good tune increase your driving skill?” - My answer is yes. I think having a good tune allows you to drive the car more easily at the limit without fighting so many handling “gremlins”. This in turn allows you to build your driving skill. And as you get into tuning, you start recognizing what characteristics you like in a car’s handling. It also let’s you recognize what to fix to benefit the car’s handling.

I’ve found in my own driving, that as I get better, I want a car with more oversteer then before. I think that is probably a natural progression, because you are learning to control the car better and can handle more and more turning ability, which will in turn shave time off your lap times. So your point of “leaving tunes behind” is very valid, I think. That doesn’t mean the old tune was bad. It is still very likely to help newer drivers who might benefit from a more neutral handling car. But like you, I find myself updating my tunes and again getting faster. :slight_smile:

“How well do you know you’re driving skill if you use someone else’s tune?” - I think the proof is in your lap times. :slight_smile: But I don’t think you’ll be quick if you’re not controlled. That totally goes to driving skill. But if you tune a car yourself, I think it all comes together, eventually. And I totally agree with you…setting a great time with your own tune is very satisfying!

Once in awhile, I find a tune done by someone else that I wouldn’t change a thing on. A couple of examples:

LMR Harmonic: He has a B Class Honda S2000 that is awesome. You’ll also see him at the top of the LBs and also has great tuning advice on this forum. He really knows his stuff.
MARsSPEED: I just tried a D Class Lancia Fulvia from him that is great!

“Can you tune regardless hoping it will fit someone’s skill?” Yes, I believe that you can build and tune a car to be both fast and easy to drive. This is actually a personal goal of mine when I tune a car. A car like this will help drivers of all skill levels. It is also fun to drive a car like this, and isn’t that what we’re shooting for? :slight_smile:

Regards,
Snowman

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I agree completely with Snowman and Fifty. I have built cars that I have watched others get top of the board times, which I can’t because I’m not as good of a driver. But I think I can stumble on a good tune here and there.

When I’ve used other’s tunes, I have found it takes a little while to find the feel, or personality of the car. Yeah, I’m that cheesy guy that thinks every car, tune and even tuner has a personality that shows up in every car they do. But I have been faster in some of the better built or tuned cars because as Snowman said, you can push the car harder with more confidence.

Once you start getting that confidence, thats when you see faster times, more comfort with the looser build and tunes which will tend to be faster.

Ok, I’m just rambling now. Anxiously awaiting the end of the work day!! Anyway, what those guys said, lol!

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“When I’ve used other’s tunes, I have found it takes a little while to find the feel, or personality of the car.”

I especially agree with this! Good point, Zepp! I think we all find our own style, whether we know it or not. :slight_smile:

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You go faster the better build/tune you have. Top drivers against top drivers its all (about 70%) about the car/build/tune.

If you 3 seconds off perfection per lap and you drive a car 4 seconds faster than everyone else you will win. The faster you are the more important the car is.

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Great stuff guys!

So what aspects do you look at first when you know a tune ain’t right ( silly question perhaps). For instance, if the car has top handling foundations (race compound, full width, race suspension etc) but it’s coming out of corners sideways?

If this is too hard to answer now I can give the details later when I’m back at my Xbox

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I’m not sure what you’re asking. If it’s along the lines of when do I decide to give up on a tune or a build, mine or someone else’s? I would say that there’s a few different answers. I’ve gotten in someone else’s build/tune and before hitting the first turn, stopped and got in a different car.

In all fairness, some builds/tunes are for a specific purpose as well. I have probably 60-80 “drag specific” tunes shared in FM6. I have many circuit tunes also, but drag is NOT for turning, lol. If somebody grabbed one of those, not seeing the DRAG in the description and tried turning, at all!! They probably think I’m the worst tuner to ever play. But those are DRAG specific tunes and builds. Some guys stuff is for drifting. So I guess I’m just saying be sure to know what your driving.

Sometimes, more often than not, it will just be after driving it for a while and pushing as hard as I can but not being able to do what I want with it. Something is just not right. Thats normally the case. Just one little aspect can be enough to make it not feel right, to me anyway.

Maybe that was what you were asking, maybe not, lol.

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Haha, I’ve not yet entered into the niche worlds of drag or drifting yet.

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So I have this Audi. I think my cardinal sn was to convert it from AWD to RWD, as it’s now very skittish. Surely there’s a way of calming it down a bit???

build:
Engine; (all base except), Sport exhaust,
Platform; all RACE upgrades
Drivetrain; base clutch, race transmission, base driveline, race diff
Tyres; race compound, full tyre widths front and rear, base Audi wheels therefore stock sized rims
Aero; ForzaTune adjustable
Conversions; Stock engine, AWD to RWD

Tune:
Tyres pressures; 27PSI all round
Gearing; FD 3.74. 1st 3.79. 2nd 2.43. 3rd 1.79. 4th 1.41. 5th 1.17. 6th 1.00
Alignment; camber. -1.8, -1.8. Toe 0.0 -0.2. Front caster 5.5
ARB. 17.92. 19.41
Springs. 827.6. 553.8. Ride height. 6.9. 6.9
Damping, Rebound. 7.4. 6.8, Bump. 6.2. 4.0
Aero, 90. 190

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Braking. 52%. 80%
Diff. 60%. 10%

If you could take a look great, if not I understand. But any advice would be greatly appreciated, thanks

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What Audi is it exactly? And whats the weight, weight distribution and exact tire widths? You got race roll cage right?

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Hey JD,

You said “It’s coming out of the corners sideways.” So this is coming out of the corners on the power, and you’re breaking traction, correct? Corner entry/exit problems are often adjusted with the Diff settings. For corner exit, adjust the accel setting DOWN. Try 2 clicks less, then test. (Example: If it is 60, set to 58.) Test. Is it better at all? If it is, but not good enough, take another 2 clicks off. Try again. Do this until you have a good balance of grip vs. engine response. If you get down to, say, 20, and it isn’t significantly better, then it is something else. Also, make sure you are rolling on the power as you come out of a turn! Even the best cars won’t do well if you “punch it” coming off a turn! :slight_smile:

FYI: For corner entry problems, you would adjust the decel setting. If the car wants to slide out (backend wants to come around) on corner entry, you RAISE the decel number. In this case, raise it by 1 click at a time. (In Forza, for some reason, 1 click makes a difference on decel. 2 clicks make a difference in accel.) Test the car. You should notice less sliding out on the brakes into a corner. You raise this until it feels good to you. But it is a balancing act. Going too far with this slows the car into the corners. And of course, vice versa, if you wanted the car to turn in better at corner entry (i.e. it doesn’t want to turn in), you would LOWER the setting. This causes the rear end to come around a little, pointing the nose into the corner.

I also have to say that the 60/10 diff setting isn’t what I would start with on RWD cars. I usually start with 70/35. Since 60 is giving you a hard time on the accel, leave it there and reduce it by two clicks as I mentioned above. But the 10 decel setting would normally really cause the car to dive into the turns with the back end wanting to slide out. If this is happening, set this to 35 then adjust as I mentioned above.

This may not be the whole problem. It could easily be the other suspension settings (ARB, springs, etc.), but hopefully this will help. What Audi are you tuning? This would help if someone wanted to try your settings and weigh in on this. :slight_smile:

Regards,
Snowman

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Good driving trumps a good tune/build. A top driver can put a bad car places it doesnt belong. If a driver cant actually push a tune how does the driver know whether a tune is bad or if just driving a tune bad. I have taken number 1 tunes and given them to people and they cant get anywhere near and said the tune is junk because they couldn’t drive the tune. But how can a tune be junk and a #1 tune at the same time?

The best way to find out if its driving or if its tune, is go to rivals download tune of rival and go chase rival in the same tune so you know there isnt any discrepencies its down to driver at that point. Theres a good chance if you arent sure if a tune makes the difference or not, it is your driving.

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So you don’t believe in driving/tuning style?

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Nope, only believe in 1 thing in forza and thats lap times. Whether or not you enjoy driving the tune a good driver can get 9.9/10ths out of the car and they should be able to adapt to the car, if not they are not a good driver.

Example: GreekSniper a few months back did a test of any car at bathurst. He would take the tune well beyond what the tuner thought it was capable of, regardless of how it was tuned, because he is a top driver .

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I do agree that a good driver in forza can adapt to anything and get more than should be possible out of anything they drive. I also remember Greek’s Bathurst test driving event. He drove many, many of my cars, even a rediculous 725hp RWD Syclone in S class. He actually got a pretty good time with it all things considered. Greek is one of those drivers, just unbelievable. And there’s quite a few of you out there. I’m certainly not one of them, but I’m not the slowest either.

What I personally don’t agree with, and this is MY opinion, (as someone who loves forza but doesn’t get too serious about being the fastest) I feel like style or the manner in which you choose to attack a corner, braking line, aggressiveness, varies from driver to driver. This is where what I consider the personality, or style of a driver, tuner comes into play. Just as what type of car your driving or prefer to drive takes different approaches to drive.

Forza to me is amazing because, for example, PTG Baby Cow can go hard core and attack the boards or dominate in lobbies because that’s his preference, just guessing for conversation sake. Whereas I can build my drag cars and try to get muscle cars to hang with race cars or tuner exotics. If i can get into the top 1% or top 150 or so on any leaderboard, then I’m pretty happy. But again, that’s what makes forza what it is. Play how you want. Race how you want. Enjoy how you want.

I guess all I’m saying is, for me, taking the character and personality out of the cars and tunes takes some of the enjoyment out of the game. It would be kinda like not having any paintjobs, just 4 or 5 colors for every car. Doubt that has too much relevance but wanted to say that anyway.

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A good driver will adjust to the car. Driver/car/build is 99.5% of your time in forza. Unless the tune comeplty fighting the driver, there not all that much time left.

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JD hunty runty is using Forzatune 6…that’s his first problem.

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Stupid of me not to mention the actual car: Audi RS6 2003

Weight 3081lbs
Distribution 52%
Front and rear tyre sizes: 285/35/R18
Race roll cage fitted

Diff settings feel better at 67%, 13% but still feeling that rear slide. I calmed down on throttle exiting and the car is much more stable whilst bettering laps times (kind of my original question driving skill etc)

As a lot of the oversteer is me (getting on the throttle too soon) and improvements in diff settings , I think it maybe something to do with weight handling; ARBs too tight, springs too soft??? I’ll play with this and post the outcome. I say this as I’ve played with camber, toe and caster but this either has little effect or a disastrous one.

Btw, does it matter where you test for a dry circuit all rounder? I choose Catalunya National as I think it has it all; camber, elevation, tight turns, gradual turns, long straight (hard accel/decel), chicane and of course that last turn where (I think) is difficult to get a good run if you go in the slightest bit deep or narrow.

@JoeDiesle: yes!!! I was told it was a good starting point but warned it will need adjusting. Have I been sold a pup? I’ve also been researching the net and found some archived stuff by PJTierny. I liked this as it gave reasons for doing things, their affect and the counter reasons. Although it’s primarily meant for FM2 to 4 surely the principles hold??

@PGT Baby Cow: did this and was acutely embarrassed. c2 secs off my Brands Hatch GP dry time, so yes, it was my tune at fault (Lotus Elise 111S, 2005). In fact it’s more complex that that, the build was different as I could tell the gearing hadn’t been altered - thanks for that tip though, it will be my benchmark test going forward.

Clearly, I’m no engineer, but I’m really being pulled into this. Thanks again good people.