AWD hatchbacks need help!

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1

This has seriously been bugging me since the release of the game especially since i can’t find one single discussion about this which makes me think i might be missing something.

Anyhow this is my issue and i should state that i really don’t want to use the race aero parts, I’ve been trying to make a Ford Focus RS (and many other hatchbacks) A class rally build that is satisfying to race with however the default tune is completely undrivable with extremely bad oversteer thats next to impossible to save. The final product of my tuning setups have crazy extremes that basically softens the entire rear, removing all support there but after this i still get loads of oversteer at medium to high speeds which is easier to deal with but still slows me down far too much and as an addition to the extremes i get low speed understeer. I’ve spent many, many hours trying to figure this out and asked as many people as i could but every answer i get is “just put a rear wing on it”

2

I have had a look at the car and driven it.

To be honest I don’t think it has oversteer. If anything it is stubborn to turn and therefore you may be trying harder to get it to turn which results in oversteer.

But if any of the default settings are oversteer inducing I would look at reducing front rebound by 0.5 to get a front/rear neutral balance as a starting point.

3

I usually use sports tyres but since the dlc came out i did a rally conversion because its a rally build however, despite making it a little more grippy it hasn’t really changed much i mean it turns into corners just as fast as any of my other awd cars, its just the rear slides uncontrollably and I’m truly trying to avoid the race aero because its ugly for starters and A class is a bit slow to start using them. I never had this problem on previous forza games, if i made a hatchback on forza 4 for example i could just use a benchmark setup i usually use for coupes, sedans or even 4x4’s and it drove exactly as i expected it to but this has in my opinion become a big problem since i love racing those little nimble cars and I’ve been forced to avoid them because of this.

4

There are all sorts of things you can do to decrease oversteer in an AWD car, although I must say the usual problem with AWD is too much understeer. To decrease oversteer you might start with the build by simply installing a wider rear tire and narrower front tire. That should be a good start if you haven’t already done it. But there are so many different places on a track your car could get squirrely – acceleration, deceleration, high speed, low speed, tarmac, gravel, off road, etc. – it’s practically impossible to fix without seeing your current build and knowing precisely when you lose grip.

5

If it’s the appearance that matters then it looks like your out of luck some cars you can tweak and tweak and then you realise rear aero is a must for the traction you need to carry the kind of speeds you want through a corner otherwise you need to take the corner slower. As for saying A is a bit slow of a class to start adding aero is imo is wrong, some of the cars i have built in this and previous Forza’s have carried aero (as appearance is not high on my agenda) and can produce fast times on the LB’s and have dominated public lobby races and that’s with other people than myself driving them.

6

I have no doubt that some people can get some pretty quick times with aero on A class cars, it just doesn’t suit my usual setups. To suit my setups I’d probably have to downgrade my tyres otherwise it hinders my cars performance more than actually improving it.

When i get home I’ll post my setup along with the list of upgrades i used

7

On AWD cars you don’t need a lot of rear downforce so adjust it so you get the turn you want from front aero and reduce the rear aero to quite low.

Aero is beneficial in A class cross country even with sport or race tyres. I usually use sport tyres and aeros in A class cross country but do have some successful builds with race or stock tyres but sport seems to be the sweet spot in my opinion.

8

Normally i would agree with you however i don’t think you quite understand, you seriously need to make literally any hatchback it seems all wheel drive and put it in A class or even S1 class with ‘no’ rear aero, it is unbearable to drive with default tuning settings, a headache to tune and even then it feels like it handles really wrong

9

I am confused. Do you have it using default settings or are you tuning it yourself?

If you are ok doing so post your tune here. If you would prefer not to make it public but would be willing to share it with me send it to me in a private message and I will have a look.

10

After work today I can take a look at it and see what I can come up with. Haven’t driven the car in this game yet, but I loved it in FH1. It was my go to in it’s category and class.

11

These are the upgrades I’ve chosen for the 2009 Ford Focus RS

Conversion:
All wheel drive

Engine:
Sports intake
Street fuel system
Sports exhaust
Street camshaft
Sports flywheel

Platform and handling:
Race brakes
Rally suspension
Race anti-roll bars front and rear
Race chassis/roll cage
Race weight reduction

Drivetrain:
Race clutch
Rally transmission
Race differential

Tyres and rims:
Rally tyres
Tyre width is 255 front and rear (235 or 245 on the front makes it too responsive for the rear)
Superturismo gt O.Z rims (not that it matters too much)

and i have no aero because this car has possibly the worst looking rear wing i have ever seen in any game… its suited for a troll car

The tuning setup is extremely weird and i must emphasize on that because I’ve had to take extreme measures to get it to even closely handle as good as it does, it handles alright i just feel like it really isn’t as good as it should be.

Tyre pressure:
Front - 28psi
Rear - 25psi

Alignment:
Front camber - -.07°
Rear camber - -0.2°
Front toe - 0.2°
Rear toe - -0.4°
Caster is stock, i don’t know much about what the caster angle does

Anti-roll bars:
Front - 19.00
Rear - 1.00

Springs:
Front stiffness - around 270 to 275lbs
Rear stiffness - 210 to 220lbs
Front ride height - 6.5 inches
Rear ride height - 6 inches

I usually just leave damping stock

Differential:
Front acceleration - 35%
Front deceleration - 40%
Rear acceleration - 20%
Rear dedeceleration - 30%
Centre diff - 50%

12

I don’t understand. You ask for help, then proceed to argue with those that help you and they happen to be two of the best racers on these forums.

Looking at your build, it is very understeer inducing and not responsive. I can tell this just by looking at the numbers, I can only imagine how difficult it must be to actually drive. Remember this is a game that uses somewhat real physics, but it is still a game.

  1. Optimal warm tire pressure is in the 31 - 33 range. This is easiest accomplished in FM5 and FH2 by setting your tire pressure to 28.0 PSI. Some cars will have variation and a setting of 27 - 29 PSI is a good start.

  2. Especially on AWD you can run a much lower negative camber. Play around with a lower front or lower rear to see how each makes the car respond.

  3. Changing toe settings changes your cars stability and turn in response. Caster is similar.

  4. Your Anti-roll bars are way out of whack. If you want a responsive car they are all wrong. I’ve seen builds with min front and max rear ARBs in FH2 that do well. Your set up causes a lot of understeer mid-corner with a very floppy, unstable rear end over bumps.

  5. Your front springs are set to an understeer scenario as well. Typically, the numbers don’t look like they’d be an issue but you must look at them with consideration to your anti-roll bars. In this case you are not helping yourself. If you leave your springs the way they are you must have a lower front ARB and a higher rear ARB. If you want to leave the ARBs the way they are you must have a MUCH higher rear spring which in-turn may cause other issues in your setup.

  6. Learn damping. The textbox in the game is a good start. There is also a great video on youtube (I forgot who did it, but they are a forum member here) explaining damping in FM5. Also, look up some real world articles and see what you can take from it. They are usually suspension related so they’ll teach you about damping, camber, toe, and caster.

  7. For AWD cars the default differential settings of 50/0 75/75 50 are a good starting point. I usually start with 50/5 75/10 65 and adjust from there.

  8. Your build can also use some adjusting. You may be able to make changes and get some more power. Some things you put in aren’t benefiting your build while others may just be unnecessary.

In any case. I’ve seen where this thread has gone and that’s all I’m willing to say.

13

I don’t understand. You ask for help, then proceed to argue with those that help you and they happen to be two of the best racers on these forums.

Looking at your build, it is very understeer inducing and not responsive. I can tell this just by looking at the numbers, I can only imagine how difficult it must be to actually drive. Remember this is a game that uses somewhat real physics, but it is still a game.

  1. Optimal warm tire pressure is in the 31 - 33 range. This is easiest accomplished in FM5 and FH2 by setting your tire pressure to 28.0 PSI. Some cars will have variation and a setting of 27 - 29 PSI is a good start.

  2. Especially on AWD you can run a much lower negative camber. Play around with a lower front or lower rear to see how each makes the car respond.

  3. Changing toe settings changes your cars stability and turn in response. Caster is similar.

  4. Your Anti-roll bars are way out of whack. If you want a responsive car they are all wrong. I’ve seen builds with min front and max rear ARBs in FH2 that do well. Your set up causes a lot of understeer mid-corner with a very floppy, unstable rear end over bumps.

  5. Your front springs are set to an understeer scenario as well. Typically, the numbers don’t look like they’d be an issue but you must look at them with consideration to your anti-roll bars. In this case you are not helping yourself. If you leave your springs the way they are you must have a lower front ARB and a higher rear ARB. If you want to leave the ARBs the way they are you must have a MUCH higher rear spring which in-turn may cause other issues in your setup.

  6. Learn damping. The textbox in the game is a good start. There is also a great video on youtube (I forgot who did it, but they are a forum member here) explaining damping in FM5. Also, look up some real world articles and see what you can take from it. They are usually suspension related so they’ll teach you about damping, camber, toe, and caster.

  7. For AWD cars the default differential settings of 50/0 75/75 50 are a good starting point. I usually start with 50/5 75/10 65 and adjust from there.

  8. Your build can also use some adjusting. You may be able to make changes and get some more power. Some things you put in aren’t benefiting your build while others may just be unnecessary.

In any case. I’ve seen where this thread has gone and that’s all I’m willing to say.
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I’ve had maybe one small arguement which was about the tyre pressure. The car needs to be “understeer inducing” because the rear end on hatchbacks are completely unstable and won’t grip like they should and do in previous games (unsure of forza 5, i stopped playing it after a couple a hours) without a rear wing with exceptions to very, very few hatchbacks (so far i can only think of the 08’ impreza). I’ve applied every suggestion that was given to me and fiddled with it on my own accord in just about every section, upgrades, tyre pressure, wheel alignment, anti-roll bars, suspension stiffness, damping and differential.

You talk as if you’ve driven the car for years and you keep treating it as another awd sedan, coupe or 4x4 and I’m telling you now, hatchbacks handle much differently and not for the better. The default settings make the car a joke to drive and it oversteers from soft to hard steering with and without acceleration.

I’ve been pming SNE and we’ve still been fiddling with the focus and while I’m not sure if he’s reached his goal with how the car drives i know I’m still very far from my goal.

14

I’ve had maybe one small arguement which was about the tyre pressure. The car needs to be “understeer inducing” because the rear end on hatchbacks are completely unstable and won’t grip like they should and do in previous games (unsure of forza 5, i stopped playing it after a couple a hours) without a rear wing with exceptions to very, very few hatchbacks (so far i can only think of the 08’ impreza). I’ve applied every suggestion that was given to me and fiddled with it on my own accord in just about every section, upgrades, tyre pressure, wheel alignment, anti-roll bars, suspension stiffness, damping and differential.

You talk as if you’ve driven the car for years and you keep treating it as another awd sedan, coupe or 4x4 and I’m telling you now, hatchbacks handle much differently and not for the better. The default settings make the car a joke to drive and it oversteers from soft to hard steering with and without acceleration.

I’ve been pming SNE and we’ve still been fiddling with the focus and while I’m not sure if he’s reached his goal with how the car drives i know I’m still very far from my goal.
[/quote]

Maybe it’s because I drive an AWD hatchback in real life so IDK…

I will give it a try in game and see what I can come up with. I know I made one of the newer Golf hatches AWD and fiddled with it and could never get it to where I wanted it. I made one build into a really great off-road cross country build but couldn’t make one that I enjoyed for the road races.

Just remember, if the car is understeer inducing, you don’t want to over-compensate by pushing too hard and causing oversteer yourself. I know I take a similar approach to SNE and prefer a car that has quick, light, and very responsive turn in with perhaps a slight tendency to oversteer so that I can request as much turn and throttle as I need. Then the issue becomes not breaking into oversteer but controlling the car and not oversteering.

15

Looking at the tune specs i can tell you a few things wrong with tune.

  1. rear psi should be higher
  2. front and rear camber should be higher
16

Your tune is way out of balance.

Do not have such a large gap between front and rear tyre pressure and camber.

I propose 29/29 and significantly more front camber and have rear camber equal front to start with.

1 Like
17
  1. caster should be higher than stock.
  2. anti roll bars need to be swtched ie. 1. In front and 19 (still too high btw) in back
  3. springs should have more lbs on the back. (more than front)
  4. damping needs lowering
  5. diff is all wrong… Decel should be lower then accel. And centre diff i would give a 60% back to front.
18

I know its out of balance and i know what looks completely wrong, I’ve stated a few times that everything with awd hatchbacks is completely wrong and need extremes, they do not at all handle like they should nor do they handle like an awd sedan, coupe or 4x4 and that is why i started this topic, so i could find a solution to this and i posted my setup to show you all what i am having to deal with.

Also its a rally car setup, 31-33psi is not an ideal tyre pressure offroad at optimal tyre temperatures

19

Um I think I know a little about tuning for cross country in A class, particularly on storm island.

The tyre pressure settings and camber settings pointed out to you are out of balance and oversteer causing NOT oversteer curing.

And with AWD hatchbacks you do not need the settings you have.

Which Focus are you working with? the old one or the new one ie which year? EDIT: sorry see that its the 09. Lets see what I can do with it.

20

Ok just did my own build and tune on the Focus RS 2009 and set the #5 time on West Hill Cross Country Circuit.

I am not happy with the time but if you look at the vehicles around me I think its clear that this track and this car may not suit each other. I just plucked a track I had not run a good time on yet.

My tyre pressures are 29.0/29.5. I set my time on lap 2 and have no idea what the warm pressures were but I have tested on dirt before and usually end up close to the default 30 at both ends.

Camber I won’t give the exact figures but rear camber had more negative camber than front by 0.2.

Toe…well I don’t use toe usually but here I am using 0.1/-0.1.

Caster is a secret lol but if you want stability or slower turning then increase it. I suggest that is a bad idea though.

ARBs. um not telling lol but I like what Speedless said - flip them and tweak from there. Yes it will make the car turn easier. I still think you are causing the oversteer yourself due to the car not turning easily. Not only is there a concept like throttle control but there is also steering control. My cars turn easily so I input less steering.

Springs - bring them closer together. Rear can be slightly lower than front but not much.

Learn damping. This is a big issue because you are using default FWD damping on an AWD vehicle. Reduce the gap front to rear. My rebound only differs around 0.1 to 0.2 front to back and same with bump. Rally damping is something that I still need to test more but start with something like 7.0/7.0 and 2.0/2.0.

Diff - hmm. not sure how much to say here. your accel figures are low, particularly at the rear and get rid of the decel. you have the car hard to turn off gas and I suspect therefore you are trying too hard to get it to turn on gas and therefore inducing oversteer again.

Now I used aero. High front / low rear. I want my awd vehicles to turn.

Now build - get rid of the flywheel. I personally have a very different engine build and no roll cage and a few other differences but get rid of the flywheel. I believe that will help slightly with your issue.

If you choose to disagree with this just understand you are disagreeing with a current top 5 build and tune.

If you want me to I will share it on the sharefront so you can try it but I suspect you will have the same complaints about it to be honest. Yes it does have a natural oversteer but I roll with it as I can use it to make turning easier.