Single player AI is

Forza Motorsport Forza Motorsport (2023) Discussion
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Theres another video gamermuscle recently did with some guy making a new sim. There was a lot of interesting stuff in it, like what tire simulation choice he made, which is basically easier to adjust, where as theres another one that literally takes 24hrs to readjust if you make any changes.

But theres a segment on ai, which he basically said if he were to give the ai the same physics as the player, one ai would use an entire cpu core. So obviously thats not feasible and hes looking at what options are available.

Ai isnt an easy thing to do and none are perfect. But in the long run a balance has to be found, i think forza motorsport does not have that balance. Other games have fast ai and are still able to make them function on basic levels, imo forzas ai cant.

Sometimes they can give a good showing, but in my experience its very rare. Its almost as though these times are by accident, because even if you restart the race it could be the total opposite.

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What I’m about to type may be complete garbage…

But I have long suspected that there is a group of AI driving styles that FM mixes to make up the field. Some of these styles are “clean”, some are “mistake prone” and others “aggressive”.

This feels most apparent in the single player Cup series, where one car will appear to carry its same traits, race after race.

When I get a bad mix of AI (meaning, many of the field are showing heavy lean toward the common oddities), I can quit from a race to main menu, and completely restart the event (for Cups, I must restart the entire Cup)… And odds are I can see different results.

Maybe not better, but different. Quit again, get a different mix.

I have done this “reset” sometimes 3 and 4 times in the monthly Cup Tours, until I finally get a clean first lap. And in a Cup series, odds are that every race in the series continues to be a similar experience. Whereas when I let a messy AI field carry to the next races, the mess (even down to the same cars showing same traits) carries on.

It’s never perfect. There are always at least a few “rough” AI types. But I could nearly swear that there are sometimes more, and sometimes fewer, of these different AI “styles” mixed in the field.

Again, perhaps complete garbage. Super confirmation bias. Placebo. Bad lunch… whatever.

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No its not garbage, it is the case. But i dont pay attention to the names as much as starting positions. The drivers up front are usually more capable, but a couple will usually make a catastrophic mistake at some point and drop like 10 places.

Then theres ai that will be extremely slow, if you watch telemetry they dont use full throttle, they usually start in the back. Then theres one or two hyper aggressive drivers that will seemingly accelerate into corners usually causing an issue.

Theres nothing wrong with the ai having different personalities, its just the way its done in this game isnt natural. I think if you choose a higher difficulty, the ai should in turn be more competent. Mistakes should be less, race craft should be better, but thats not the case in this game.

They just lack consistency, whether this was by design or not is debatable. When Chris Esaki spoke about the ai before launch, he said they dont make many mistakes, i think this is true if you just watch one ai hot lap around a track. But when actually racing this is far from true.

A mistake doesnt necessarily mean going off the track, it can be more basic like choosing the wrong line through a corner. I believe he said something about the ai having like 9 lines to choose from. This sounds great in theory, to give them choices, but in reality there arent 9 optimal lines through a corner.

Eventually these 9 lines will converge at some point and thats where the problems are. At any point if you choose your corner line wrong it will compromise not only yourself, but the people around you.

This stuff isnt an issue when the pack thins out, but the fact of the matter is in a 2-4 lap race there isnt time for that. What i used to do in freeplay to get a cleaner experience with a little challenge were staggered starts. The ai were better in this scenario as they all had space and couldnt mess eachother up. But this isnt an option in career.

I think when it comes down to it, they chose a very hands off system to make the ai. Theyve spent a year tweaking the things they can, but the architecture itself seems to be flawed. Its a simple case of theres no right way to do the wrong thing, no matter what they tweak theres a fundamental issue holding things back.

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Don’t have to quit the whole thing. Just reload new Ai. Go to difficulty >> set it lower >> save. Then go to difficulty again >> set it back to where you had it >> save. Back to race and it should load some new opponents. Is what I used to do. Works in H5 too.

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They really good the AI machine learning before the launch. I feel like that is part of the problem. Perhaps well intentioned or maybe pushed by Microsoft corporate, they are likely in over they’re heads. I can’t help but wonder when i watch the AI, what is it they are learning? Because it’s definitely not racecraft. And that is likely what is going wrong, it’s learning the wrong lessons and they don’t seem to know how to fix that.

I will say the AI dies tend to take good lines. I love Road America, but one of the most immersion braking things for me on AMS2 is how the AI take the kink. Forza AI actually does it pretty well when it has the grip. Forever when it doesn’t, it breaks mid corner kink which drives me nuts. That mid corner braking, where did it leatn that? No one that has a semblance of understanding corners ever dies that in racing in a corner. Is the AI learning this from bad players?

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I’m convinced that anything learning-related is vaporware marketing speak. As far as I can tell, Forza’s AI make the same exact mistakes when replicating context.

AMS2’s AI has been slowly getting better. Wish it still wasn’t so easy to overtake under braking, especially on the opening laps with colder tires. I noticed that Reiza’s made decent progress balancing out their simplified physics model to make for better inclement weather racing.

What still confuses me is that, no matter how many times I nail Eau Rouge-Rad, in any class, going flat-out with minimal/no scrub, the AI always gains time on me there. Certain tracks still have these weird issues, but I still think it’s the best AI on the market

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I find AMS2 AI fun, and the drivers do have their own personalty, as well as mods that also adjust driver personalities. It’s not perfect racecraft wise, but usually good enough. It’s just sometimes the lines they take and not using the whole track when it makes sense to do so ruins my immersion.

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I think the data theyve taken over the years from players is based purely around racing lines. Where we brake, turn, accelerate, how many g’s, our speed through turns etc. If you remember the stats in past forzas, all that data is likely used.

What that data isnt going to be good for is how to race. This is where an actual human is needed. The ai need to be taught situational lessons, how to pass, how to defend, how to avoid traffic, how to not brake on straights for no reason.

Past forzas while not perfect, did not have these issues. So while they weren’t as fast and required rubberbanding, they were much better at racing. The focus on making an ai that doesnt “cheat” has ultimately made them worse. The fact that a year later this still cant be remedied, to me means this direction is a dead end.

I said it when this game launched, that almost everything that was touched, has been made worse. How this happened, i really couldnt say, im sure theres multiple reasons. But when something is objectively worse, then why not at least go back to something that did work until you figure out something better.

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I think that’s exactly what a lot of players did - either went back to FM7 or found another game that actually works as advertised, at least until something better comes along.

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So. Get this. I setup a race using advanced setup right. Set PI limit to that of my car. Lvl 8 drivatars with expert rules. Set the race length to medium and I just walk away from the field like it’s nothing. Set the race length to short and INSTANTLY 2 cars behind me start walking me like it’s no big deal.

Tell me again that I’m nuts again about how the race length affects Ai behavior.

Furthermore, it’s always US cars that are doing it when I’m in my BMWs. Cadillacs, Camaros, Mustangs. I’ve lost count the amount of times a Cadillac wagon with the worst flamed cheeseball livery has gotten me off the line in a short race. Medium and long, I see that car in my rear view the entire race.

What even is this nonsense?!

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This week’s Featured Career AI was all over the place for me. Usually on Level 4 difficulty with only shortcut penalties enforced, I can typically finish 1st or 2nd in individual races (usually reaching 1st by the penultimate or final lap). For the third race at Bathurst, I was in 1st by the end of the first long straightaway on the first lap. Bizzare.

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Its not bizarre, it sounds like you had the right car for that race. Bathurst has a long straight that is ideal for passing cars especially if your car has a top speed advantage.

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I must rarely have the right car in that case. Miata RF for the win!

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Question for those who have played Motorsport entries longer than I have (I’ve only played 4 and this current entry). Has Forza’s AI always cheated in some way on higher difficulties? It’s my only gripe with FM4 at times, but I can now say it at least makes sense sometimes compared to the inconsistency that is 2023.

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Past games had rubberbanding, this game doesnt. Rubberbanding could be seen as an advantage for slower players allowing them to make a come back. But if you were leading, would allow the ai to come back at you.

The ai does not cheat in this game. If theyre posting better times, its because theyre faster than you. Theres numerous ways to tip the scales in your favor, so if youre having an issue use those options to get your desired result.

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Thank you. I’ll keep that in mind with 2023. FM4 feels like if I tune my vehicle wrong and then take a single turn wrong, I have to restart the race just to have a shot at catching up to first place by the final lap. Either my tuning is wrong, or I’m bringing the wrong vehicle to the races so to speak. I guess my next question would be if there’s recommended horsepower or vehicle stats to keep in mind besides the overall PI?

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For the vast majority of tracks, a build that focuses on reducing weight and improving grip will be effective in FM

Race parts (brakes, springs, ARBs, transmission, diff), weight reduction, tires, and aero all do a lot to help and open up tuning options. Race parts should be a non-negotiable priority and don’t cause heavy PI impacts

Both intake and exhaust are the only power-adders that reduce weight

If the option for a centrifugal supercharger (csc) exists, it’s the most PI-effective power-adder

If engine swaps exist, and there’s one that’s naturally-aspirated that’s lighter than the given factory engine, it’s typically a more effective use of PI, plus many of them open up the option for a csc

Avoid camshafts; least efficient power in terms of PI. Ideally steer clear of oil and cooling and intercoolers due to the added weight

Avoid ballast as much as you can, although it can be used to nerf higher level cars to bring them down a class. There are rare instances where ballast makes sense

Worth noting that sport brakes open up brake bias tuning, but race brakes are still effective use of PI due to weight savings

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Pooshedpork reply is pretty thorough, fm4 was a more power focused game while this one is more biased towards handling.

I dont know your exact situation when it comes to the races, it could be the car, could be the build, the tune, your skill or any or all of these things.

I think something you can start with is figure out your skill level and go on from there. Do a one make race, where everyone uses the same car, fm23 is a little bit annoying with this as you cant disable upgrades like in fm4, just set the pi limit to whatever the stock pi is for the car you choose.

Pick a track that you know well, do the race and see where you stack up lap time wise. If youre slower, than lower the difficulty and try again. Realistically its better if the ai are a little faster as it gives you a target to shoot for and youll learn to get better.

Ai difficulty can vary track to track, so this may need to change here or there. Car choice wise, there are leaderboard or meta cars in every class that you can choose and those are always solid choices. But for the most part the ai can be beaten by any car as long as it suits the track.

I wouldnt focus too much on winning all the time, there are multiple things that can happen during a race that can swing the balance of the outcome. Id suggest you try to be as clean as possible and try to minimize mistakes. Pay attention to how the ai race, see where you gain or lose time against them, get better where your slower and get even faster where youre better.

Its honestly all about putting in the time and effort to keep getting better, to keep getting faster. If you do this, eventually you will always win and youll want a greater challenge and youll be the one giving the suggestions.

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Thanks everyone for all your help. I’ll be using this knowledge in both FM4 and '23.

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I’m fairly new to this game and likewise only played FM4 previously (have a lot more real track experience than games), but one thing I’ve noticed is that the AI are pretty bad about carrying corner speed like I can. They tend to park it on the apex, so if you’re right on the bumper, it turns into a crash or you have to brake suddenly and then lose momentum on the next straight (kind of a shady, but common tactic from real racing). So instead maintain a small gap and then carry speed to get past on the straight, or if the corner is wide enough, take the wide line and under cut to pass.

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