Ok, its been long enough. Every single person who has played any forza since like 2010 or earlier knows how absolutely terrible the PI system is. The PI system has been so unbalanced for so long and it seemingly just gets copy pasted into every new title. Every single class and category is dominated by a handful of cars, most AWD cars are totally useless for competition. Cars like the Subaru Legacy, mitsubishi 3000GT, eagle talon, sadly the new EVO III, many AUDI cars, and generally 60% of the cars in any forza title have NO hope of being competitive. This causes every class to be boring when cars like the abysmal porsche 550 spider, MX5 miata, 97’ honda civic, 2002 chevy camaro, prosche 911 strassenversion and all the other usual suspects to be the only choice if you want a chance to win a race. Why add 700+ cars if only 100 or less of them have a shot at a win? Some cars need 70+ PI more than the class allowance just to run average lap times. For example my friend and i tested how many extra PI points a B class subaru SVX would need on forza 7 to have actual preformance stats similar and competitive to top or average B class cars, the answer was 71. It was nearly at the top of A class just to run with the top B class cars such as the full aero civic or full aero 6cyl swap evo 6. You can have 2 cars with the same exact PI rating yet one is Several points higher in all categories (speed, acceleration, handling, braking) this must change. For a decade the same 100 cars have dominated the game while the rest are useless, nobody on earth cares about the porsche 550 spider yet its one of the most used cars in D,C, and B class and it is so OP that most cars that line up against it cannot compete. The game is NOT as fun as it should be when the cars you like and want to build and have passion for are totally useless.
This leads me to the 2nd part of this topic… the also abysmal Forza Aero. In a game that is so based around being forced to use aero more often than not just to have a chance to compete, its totally ridiculous that in a decade we still have one single option for aero… a lazily copy and pasted visually appalling wing and splitter complete with tow hooks embedded in the bumper and the ugliest canards the world has ever seen. There is NO excuse to not have more option and also have the parts actually fitted to individual cars, its visually reprehensible on 90% of cars. Ancient PS2 and xbox games have better visiual customization, there is zero reason that this cannot be done on forza… even grand theft auto has stripped interiors theres also no reason forza cannot do this also. Everyone is sick of the Forza aero, it is so ugly many refuse to use it despite the massive advantages of aero on most tracks further taking away from the expirence and immersion racing fans look for. The stripped interiors is simply just a visual aid to help players bond with their car, you feel like you have built a true racing machine instead of a full interior car with a roll cage glitching through the dash and seats.
I love forza ive played every single title they have ever released, im not attacking forza to put them down i just want to see these basic but essential game mechanics have even an appaerance of effort put into them. The racing online is so boring because you are obligated to drive boring and usually hideous meta built, meta cars with forza aero and 20 inch rims just to not be 2 seconds a lap slower. For the people like me who refuse to destroy an automobile just to compete and be forced to drive cars i dont care about, i usually just put the controller down and obviously thousands of others have been doing the same.
Forza Motorsport 2023 is a massive step in the correct direction and i guarantee if you fix these 2 things in your next title then the community will surge and grow rapidly. Imagine having any car you can think of actually have the chance to win on the track because the PI system isnt totally broken. Please if you do nothing with the next title except fix the PI system above all else i promise you that forza will be back on top. Better yet work on nerfing some of the ridiculously meta cars now… today… tomorrow. Make it part of an update in the near future and let this game grow as well. We all saw and you cant deny that you left Forza 7 to rot. It still has day 1 glitches to this day and it had more potential than any other forza until now. Please do NOT make that mistake again.
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What’s amazing with Forzas Aero upgrades is that many of the car models have missing LODs states when upgraded. Bumpers would litteraly disappear when 10 meters away from the player (& reappear 20 meters away because LOD2 is missing but not LOD3…)
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@avenger31X ,point well stated, to bad no one of any studio significance is listening. T10 will probably mark the forza aero post in the SHUB as complete now that they have added 18 of the most hideous (even more so than the original) aero wings into the game. And cars are still limited to just the forza wing or that ugly gurney flap. No options except for the 18.
And the PI. That’s a pointless argument. Unless they are going to actually research the cars and spec them out accordingly to their real world capabilities this PI system is never going to get balanced. And in almost 20 years of the game they have never made any attempts to do such changes, it’s a safe bet it will never (emphasize NEVER) happen.
I don’t know if GT7 does it or not but I seem to recall that GT or somewhere up to GT4 you could upgrade most cars with a race chassis. And that gave your car a race car (read stripped out interior) look. I agree with getting the interior out especially when adding in the roll cage.
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Now I’m pretty sure stripped interiors would be next to impossible to do accurately. They’re certainly not going to let the people that scan the cars disassemble the interior to scan the panels underneath. If we’re talking something like having the passenger seat removed like in the 360 gen, that’s more doable I’d imagine but Forzavista viewing might look kinda jank (which is probably part of why it isn’t done anymore)
Forza aero on the other hand… There’s kinda no excuse IMO. The upgrade system and PI definitely need some changes as well, but I was hoping they would’ve done that before launch. Oh well, I guess
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I feel like it would be as easy as increasing certain cars base PI. Say the f1 gt had a base PI of 700, change it to 750 with all upgrades increasing the PI the same as before.
It would be much easier to increase PI of meta cars more than decrease every uncompetitive car.
Do it in rounds. First round, nerf ten or so current meta cars, that alone would probably increase the # of competitive cars anywhere from 2-5 times.
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As long as there will be ultracompetitive people, there will be meta cars. It’s not a PI issue, it’s a human nature issue.
I think my solution though each time would make the situation better. Even just addressing 5 cars an update would make a huge difference. I bet you could even do it if T10 allowed it.
Eh, I agree and disagree.
As long as there’s more than one car, or more than one way to build or tune a car, there will be a meta. And there’s always going to be people that only ever use meta cars. That I’m completely cool with
When it comes to building cars though, there’s definitely a certain list of upgrades that just seemingly give you more performance for nothing. You can exchange as many engine upgrades as you want to maximize horsepower on a naturally aspirated engine, then you slap on a centrifugal supercharger and some weight reduction to offset the added weight, and suddenly you can have an extra 20 or so horsepower in C class with almost no compromise.
Then there’s going into things like “PI efficient” engines or losing PI with things like race transmissions, and that’s what I mostly have a problem with in terms of PI
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The thing is that cars that in real life would be a class b a or s. Golf r all. subaru lancer evo and stis. nissan gtr… and a long list in this game is useless. since it only focuses on handling and not on stage 2 type preparations or things like that. Then the fact that a Megane R26r is better than a Megane RS 18 or things like that says a lot about how they recreated the performance.
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There is a way to make pi more accurate tho:
-use enough fuel to last short race length in pi calculations (it uses 100% now)
-use soft tyres as calculation base for race tyres (to fix soft meta in E-C class racing)
-For engines there are 2 option, first option is to use all rpm available (including redline) with most efficient shift points in calculations, or 2nd option, make it so we are not able to go over redline, what would automatically make op engines worse.
-use optimal settings for aero while calculating pi, usually most of old cars have balance of 0 to 0 downforce, and when adding Forza aero it changes balance to 34-62 making car undesteery, they should use 34-34 as base for calculations (default-min) and also Forza aero should get pi penalty for slipstream.
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I think this one will make sport tires too strong in B-A(-S?) class
The most simple, i think, should be to have 2 types of race tyres, the old one, where you have slick tyres but you can’t change for soft or hard, and the actual race tyres for ~mostly race cars
Or maybe a pi calculation based on both lap with medium and soft, then calculate an average and take it for the pi balance
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I mean old motorsport race tyres would be the best solution. Making hard/medium/soft compounds in available open multiplayer just makes everything unbalanced. But turn 10 don’t care about open multiplayer.
True tho that’s sport tyres would be too op in any multiplayer lobby then xd
They could make special compound for race tyres, that’s have grip of medium tyres on dry and grip of wets in wet, that’s would be locked into in open multiplayer.
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Some cars are totally hopeless and some cars are so insanely better than others thats simply not true. Im never expecting it to be perfect but the fact that you can have 2 cars with identical PI and one several points higher in all categories such as speed, handling, accel, braking and one is boldly seconds a lap faster that the other is too much.
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I feel like they can just take the time to at the very least just take the best and worst cars and tweak them, the meta cars should have extra PI points added per upgrade and the more hopeless cars like the chrysler stealth, 3000GT, legacy etc. and reduce their PI or reduce the number of points added per upgrade. Like that other guy said it will never be prefect but they can atleast put in minimal effort to make it even a small amount better. Its been so bad for so long alot of people myself included just turn the game off because you are tired of seeing the same meta cars winning every race for 10+ years.
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The subaru SVX was one of the best examples ever. Its a really cool car that was just totally hopeless in all classes, any build, any configuration… didnt matter its PI was nearly a full class above its actual stats and so many cars are like that its tragic.
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I do miss the passenger seat being removed even that was miles better than just a full interior. Youre right though they wont laser scan stripped cars but id be happier if they just made something up inaccurate or not but you make a good point there. Thats the least important of the complaints for sure.
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I agree with the slipstream penalty and aero tweaks thats a really good idea
even random racing seat would be great addition to interior when u install weight reduction.
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The whooe PI system has been screwed up since as long as it’s been in place. The race transmission for one should be a positive in all areas of performance to some degree. That’s why race people use them! And installing a race diff should have a similar affect on performance values.
Putting larger diameter wheels should increase handling and other performance values to some degree. But handling should go up simply based on the lower aspect ratio of the tire wheel combo changes.
There’s several other areas which reflect a lack of understanding of vehicle performance factors. Adjusting the PI system to better reflect the true performance factors of vehicles might fix a lot of the META car problems. But that’ll never happen.
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