From just skimming through the thread, I don’t think I’ve found anyone discussing, in my opinion, the quite blaring reason why Forza won’t ever take a full on SIM approach. Forza 7 has 700+ cars. They aren’t going to be able to accurately simulate 700+ cars. They’ll have to do what GT did with GT Sport and cut down to around 100-200 cars and like GT Sport that wouldn’t go down well. Though I would love Forza to become slightly more simulated. Perhaps they could simulate active aerodynamics, airbrakes, KERS and DRS while still keeping the base physics they have.
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Simulation and Simcade are divisive terms that should be banned from the driving/racing game community. They serve no other purpose but sowing division. Because there is no such thing as a perfect simulation, so arcade elements are present in every game. I’m a PC gamer. Having most the so-called “Simulations” and knowing for a fact it’s all a bunch of hype and little boys arguing about who’s toy is the best. Of course, grown men do that too when it comes to their sports teams. There all “fanatics”. Looking for a fight to prove they are best. Anyway, I like Forza’s driving physics. I find them just as realistic and challenging as the most highly touted Sims out there. And how did Assetto Corsa, Pcars, sell on consoles? Nowhere close to Forza or GTsport I bet.
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the only real thing holding forza back from being a full sim is the steering, its too assisted for the analog stick to the point of being fake, and yes im talking about “simulation” steering with the controller which is what i use.
you dont have to think or worry about how much steering input to put into the wheel, just move the stick all the way left or right and the car will have a baked-in amount of steering every time.
the generic 180 degree steering wheel animation in cockpit view does not help either, so fake.
Are you saying driving with a analog stick on ps4 is more realistic?
if you read my post, i never said anything about the ps4.
and you missed the point, its not the analog sticks, its the code that makes steering feel fake, and this is also the reason using wheels with forza is so horrible, cause its still the same code even with a wheel.
Isnt GTS on the PS4? Ok, so youre saying the code with the analog stick feels more realistic on GTS than Forza?
And I disagree that forza is horrible with the wheel. And its not the code that makes it feel fake, its the anolog stick. Forza 7 is even better with the wheel now… driving is accurate and repeatable, ie. any slip results in worse which “sim” feels better with the wheel? I dont think the dirt rally or f1 feels better and how are those better sims? They even have the same type of assists, and tuning options for the cars are not as intuitive as forza, ie. they have scales from high to low for all settings.
There’s no racing game out there that feels better on a controller imo. Of course it feels fake, it’s on a controller.
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well then you have not played assetto corsa with a controller, feels great and realistic.
also, i see many ppl here are not recognizing that features in a game are a different subject from the games physics, for example, i would love if assetto corsa had a tag mode or car soccer, that would not change the physics in any way cause it would still be the same physics, it would still be a simulation.
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I have played Assetto Corsa on a controller. Like Forza, it feels fake because there is simply only so much you can do to make a racing game feel real on a controller. However, for it being on a controller, Assetto Corsa feels fantastic but FM7 feels better on a controller in my opinion. That’s probably due to the fact Forza is aimed at controller users while Assetto is aimed at wheel users. Which is also why on a wheel, it’s the opposite effect for me.
well i guess it comes down to personal preference then, i always thought forza was the best car game out there with the controller, and it was true until assetto came out.
im just glad we have an awsome controller from xbox, i cant imagine how bad using the ps4 controller to drive a virtual car must be, would force me to buy a wheel for sure if i had to use the ps4 controller.
I have a wheel anyways but I do agree, the Xbox controller is far better. I played GT Sport on a controller the other day, it felt so wooden and it had next to no feeling compared to Forza which is a shame because I feel like the controller was causing most of the problem and didn’t give GT Sport a fair showing.
Lol,thats the only thing? I truly dont think you understand what a sim is… its not just the steering in this game. The game as a whole is arcade,every aspect.
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well considering i play Assetto Corsa almost every day for 10 months now, i would say i do understand what a sim is.
forza’s physics simulation is actually very good, its just ruined by the steering, fix that and you take forza to the next level.
If they made Forza like gts then sales would be even lower. GT took four years so the sales are bad considering and that game is lacking. I was holding a lot back on my thoughts on Forza 7 until theGTS came out and I’d say Forza series way better
Forza is the only simcade with motorsport theme, everything else motorsport-themed in the market is made for (expensive) wheels, damn, even the Codematers F1 are nowadays. Can the sim racing fanatics ever be happy? Can’t help having the feeling the hardcore simracers want desperately to throw everyone with a controller that doesn’t breath racing 24h/day out of the racing games scene because of their desperate need to “feel superior”. Turn 10 found the perfect balance between arcade and simulation with Forza 7, brought the good things from Horizon and let the boring simulation aspects for the games that focus on it while keeping a strong motorsport and car culture essence, period.
And Gran Turismo will sell well because it’s the only game of this style for Playstation 4 and it’s being released only now, still, when the casual gamers start to get crushed online, or get tired of the weak singleplayer, this honeymoon will end.
Comparing the PS3 and Xbox 360 titles, it looks like GT still sold more even though console sales were quite even and the 360 was leading for the first few years. Gran Turismo 5 sales have exceeded 10 million units, which I assume is a fair bit higher than FM 4’s (I might be wrong). What’s more interesting is that FM4 is probably the strongest in the FM series while GT5 was the beginning of the down turn for GT. There’s a lot of factors involved so I don’t think there’s a definitive reason why one sells better than the other.
I was just making the point that GT has always been a bit more realistic and serious in it’s atmosphere and succeeded. I feel like the FM series is trying too hard to appeal to a wide/casual audience of late and ends up missing the mark. Maybe I’m not the target audience anymore, but looking at the games commercially, critically and from fans, FM4 appears to be the best. I would have assumed improving on that formula would have been best course of direction.
I think the frequent releases of Forza titles is leading to a decrease in sales for each successive title, there doesn’t appear to be enough time to innovate on each title or to make them feel fresh either. FM7 is the prime example of the 2 year cycle causing big issues.
Forza, Gran Turismo and the F1 games are all fine on controllers, they have to be, because the overwhelming majority of their players exclusively use controllers.
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Nope. Has nothing to do with it. Has everything to do with Microsoft’s move into SaaS and device agnostic markets.
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30 mln XB1s, vs. 90 mln X360s. This means that a relatively larger fraction of the Xbox userbase is buying Forza. FM4 also didn’t have to face day one competition from the Horizon series, and digital sales (which are usually poorly accounted for on sales statistics) represented a much smaller fraction of the overall figures. Of course, we can speculate all we want and conjecturize all sorts of causal relationships between this and that statistic. But at the end of the day, money speaks, and Microsoft has increased its investment in the Forza brand overall. So I guess they don’t consider the current sales figures “weak results”.
And to answer OP with my two cents - pretty much nobody but sim fanatics likes real sims. And as somebody already said previously in this topic, those guys number in the few thousands, certainly not in the millions that play Forza now. The simcade approach’s been working for Gran Turismo for over twenty years, and you know why? Most people looking into this kind of games want an experience that is realistic enough to be immersive, but not so unforgiving as to require the same skills you’d need in real life to drive a race car. They want a convincing illusion, not a training tool. The next Forza will definitely need to pick up the slack on so many aspects of the game experience, but a complete change of course would be tantamount to suicide for the series.
To the people saying, “FM5 was a better sim”: no, it wasn’t. It was a harder game, sure, but GT3 cars skidding like they’re on ice is not “realism”.
And to the people saying, “Forza would be better if it became more like GT Sport”, here is a fun afternoon activity for you: jump on GTPlanet and see how many people are saying the exact opposite. Draw your own conclusions on the truthfulness of the old adage, “the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence”.
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Gran Turismo without driving aids is a bit weird, impossible to feel the limit of the grip and it became a lottery (unless they’re on), F1 is a bit weird with controller. Forza in fact ends being the last one standing.
[Edit]: weird next to what it was until 2014.
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