Drivatar difficulty and behavior discussion

We MAY get a change with the FM reboot. Depends on how they fit the PI system to the new physics model. I would imagine (if what they have said is true) that the increase in data from the tires alone would warrant a review of the PI system. The drastic loss of longitudinal grip for RWD cars (never mind the lateral grip) is telling when you think about the current physics/tire model utilizing so small a data sample.

Tires never heat evenly, setups reduce the amount of variance across the tire. Having data points at each edge and 1 for the center of the tire should help.

I end up continually coming back to whoever is at T10/PG making decisions on how much grip a tire should have initially. It seems like they have never driven a car with tires that are above a V rated tire, let alone a Z or beyond (track day) tire. I used to have a '95 Mustang that had some suspension mods (springs/shocks, poly bushings, etc.) that had Nitto 555 tires. Now the 55’s were the track day tire, the 555’s were the road going version with slightly harder rubber. With 325’s in the back and 275’s up front, I had no issues taking corners, never had them break loose. Mind you the engine was not stock either, running north of 400 hp.

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To be honest, players do this more to me than AI.

Taking on a sharp turn, gaining on the AI cars when SLAM, some goofball slams head on into me full force sending me crashing into the wall.

As annoying as the AI can be sometimes, that just sends me up the wall.

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Whilst this is still the case ,the AI has gotten more dirty of late. I’m seeing teammates deliberately taken out by AI quite frequently now,and have been done a few times myself. I’m not talking nudged out,i mean fully changing course to hit people.
Worst i’m finding now is if you manage to catch the 2-3 AI that shoot off into the lead,it’s almost guaranteed the AI at the back will try to take you out

I did get counter rammed when I accidentally pushed an AI off the road last night. It SEEMS retaliatory?

You get aggressive, they get aggressive back. Just from my expeirence.

IMO, a reaction in the AI’s behavior in response to contact is more realistic than having them blankly ignore the interaction. There is definitely a “legitimate” reaction versus an overreaction, which seems to be the case more & more.
If they are somehow using player behavior models to emulate AI responses, then that would definitely help explain some of the “corner bombing” being seen more & more by the AI.

There doesn’t seem to be any reasonable explanation for those couple of AIs that always tend to have x2 speed versus the rest of the pack.

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Like I said in a previous post, they just…appear. If you reset the racers by changing the difficulty and going back, it seems to reset them, but you just have a chance to get AI that vastly outperforms the rest of the pack, and there can be several.

It seems to be Highly Skilled upward that they appear, but they’re real frustrating when they show up, some are flat out unwinnable.

This also happens when you run a track multiple times in the same class (if you’re testing a setup or something). I use Volcan Sprint to test cars that I have set up, and have noticed that 2 or 3 runs in the AI start to increase pace and aggression, sometimes to the point of not being able to catch up.

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So, kind of like the game is tired of that pop-up option…

"We notice you’re winning easily. Would you like to increase the difficulty ? "

No.

"OK, we’ll just go ahead and increase the difficulty anyway then. It’s just the spirit of Horizon ! "

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If you read my lengthy explanation a few posts above, it’s due to a number of factors, but the underlying reason is an unrestricted (“wrong”; “broken”) PI is being generally applied to all the race courses designed by PG that include all surface types. So, certain AI cars are performing way out of expected bounds from where they should be performing if it were just one course that was sampled, and/or adjusted more accurately by humans to reflect realistic racing constraints.

Here is a more simple explanation:

In the Course Creator, you can create a race type called “Anything Goes.” This means all PIs (car classes) are allowed to compete together on a certain course, regardless of real world, or in-game PI restrictions. This allows you to race C class cars one time, and then S2 cars the next on the same course without having to create a separate C-Class Only race and a S2-Class only race every time you want to race different classes of car. More importantly, this system allows the game (AI) to know how each class “should” perform within each individual race type without having to resample the entire course every time you change car classes.

The majority of problems occur when you want to race a S2 class car in an “Anything Goes” race and the game populates it with some D class cars to fill out the opponent count. The PI for the race is S2 (player car), so the AI will “boost” the D class cars to perform on a similar level.

This is why we get ridiculous things like a BMW Isetta 300 leading the pack, going faster than an S2 class car at top speed, most often doing a wheelie that spits sparks from the rear bumper scraping against the asphalt. Other visual glitches due to the AI overcompensating are various car models sunk into the ground - literally - That just skate along in front of the player’s car because the game is using the wrong course PI for those vehicles that were never meant to go that fast.

On top of this, the AI is designed to upgrade itself one level above the players PI to be “competitive” according to difficulty level. They are given more grip, downforce and horse power (proved in the leaked developer build of FH3). Now, imagine if you are racing a “X” class car? The AI boosts itself to a class that doesn’t exist for players, but the AI obviously has parameters for.

Add the fact AI don’t physically exist in the game world if they aren’t within a certain radius in front of, or behind the player’s car, and you can see why all of this adds up to “Runaway Drivatars” that get so far out ahead of the pack there is nothing (physically) stopping them from slowing down.

By the way, these same issues apply to races that are restricted to one particular class, too. It’s because the AI is basing PI off the selected course, and not the cars. The PI system is “broken”, and why fixing the AI might not be possible unless they do a full redesign of how the game works?

I have a theory: Because of the dwindling player count, the game just grabs Xbox Live accounts (even on PC since you have to have a Xbox account) and applies a general AI profile (Level 1) that combined with the wrong PI on courses is what’s causing them to behave more aggressively?

The base profile was always this way (aggressive), but more players hid this fact because of how real player level might be factored into an algorithm that adjusts what kind of advanced profile is used for in-game races?

It’s just a theory, but I don’t believe for one minute the AI was “learning” from players the way the PR material likes to tout. I believe it’s just generic AI that has a complex algorithmic system that when faced with a low(er) player count… Leve 1… It defaults to a more aggressive, or raw profile, perhaps?

They appear at all levels of difficulty, unfortunately.

I’ve done extensive testing and Runaway Drivatars occur at every single level of difficulty from Tourist to Unbeatable. It’s because of the flawed PI system and not because of individual cars, themselves.

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Hi FH drivers,

I just read a few posts here and I just want to share something from my experience.

Maybe this whole think about drivatars difficulty is not about drivatars themselves. Maybe it is more about car you pick on specific race.

In this season there is challange with vans and utility cars. I start with Ford F-150 Lightning rank C 588 and I was not able to finish better that on 5-6 position. Than I buy and test VW pickup with rally tires and C 599 rank, I was happy to pass last two opponents, no more. Finally I pick Ford Vandura, tuned it on C 594 rank and I easilly finish on first place. These all season races are on very experienced difficulty, that cannot be changed.

So, for other players, frustrated as I was before, try different vehicle. :wink:

I am not saying that drivatars are good, they’re far from it. But in case of difficulty it’s more about proper car.

Yeah, changing car can do miracles… but it’s due to the game randomising upgrades on AI’s cars (I think), so it shouldn’t work like that :slight_smile:

I was trying to complete that seasonal championship today as well and I gave up on the course starting at the top of the volcano, when I noticed that most of AI cars don’t slow down in the water as I do, not to mention their perfect grip, almost no problems with sticking to the ideal racing line, and lightning fast start.

And trying different cars is a pain with loading screens two to three times longer than usual due to the broken update :smiley:

I’m thinking about leaving this game until the Series 15 begins (if it’ll be any good, naturally)…

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True, this is what lot of people mentioning that drivatart somehow does not respect physics. This is one of an example. I have also problems finish this level. Finally I’d try old Ford Van (with upgrades) and I finish it successfully.

Yeah, I totally agree. The street race championship this season was beatable since it was longer races with more varied routes (not just a bunch of 90 degree corners). The other two consisting of short short 3 lap circuits was really really hard. The biggest issue is the start because on this kind of short tracks with hardly any straights the start is very decisive since one easily could get stuck behind drivatars due to lack of space to overtake.

STRONGLY disagree. The AI in this game, especially on Highly Skilled, is terrible at cornering. The more corners in a race, the easier it is.

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That’s generally what I find too, I overtake on corners and struggle to stay ahead on straights, but I think that’s generally down to tunes used. High on launch, acceleration, and control. Sacrificing speed. Usually.

As for water hazards yeah, the AI cheats, the only way to even the field there is avoid them as much as possible. If a line (not the suggested line if you have it turned on) takes you through less water, take it ! It’s one of the few chances I find to pass the AI on straights. They won’t bog down as much as you do taking the same line but they usually don’t take the least water line

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Players struggling to stay ahead on straights is because of the God awful rubber banding that causes the AI to annoyingly catch up even if you’re doing in excess of 250 MPH, for example. It doesn’t matter what car you drive, nor what tune you build, or download. It also doesn’t matter what vehicle the AI uses, either. The system completely ignores any semblance of real world constraints or physics due to the vehicles performance being determined solely by the PI set for the course (on Championships this is the difficulty setting and determines the threshold of the upgrades the AI uses to be “competitive”).

Of all the problems with the AI, I feel the rubber banding is the most egregious because not only does it ruin immersion, it exposes all the other issues the AI suffers from e.g. Rubber banding is what allows the AI to get into position ahead of the player, beyond the radius where they exist in the game world, and they become phantoms with nothing to slow them down as they keep accelerating.

Forza Motorsport 7 has a setting to limit the aggression of the AI. I believe “aggression” means limiting how much rubber banding is applied, or not?

The AI in FM7 suffers from a lot of the same issues the AI in FH5 does, but one thing it doesn’t suffer from is excessive rubber banding if this limiter is turned on. Forza Horizon 5 desperately needs this setting (limiter) since it appears the devs aren’t going to adjust the PI system any time soon (they probably can’t without breaking the entire game). The PI system is one of the main causes for the AI generally performing far outside normal parameters and it’s this anomalous behavior that’s negatively effecting players enjoyment of the core function of the game: Racing cars.

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drivatars are continually updated based on player behavior. they’re violent, bad drivers because that’s what 99% of you are.

The way that’s worded gives the impression that the players are to blame for how horrendously bad the AI drives. When the real problem is PGGs decision to model AI in this manner.

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yes, that’s an important distinction. the way they modeled the beginning of races is incredibly bad, I’m starting to think they run too much AI without logical exceptions or modifications.

serious question: is this a “new” game or an “evo” game?

i think PG is out of touch in considering this to be a stand-alone game, rather than part of a ten-year “evolving world” (to borrow their term)… so the re-introduction of game elements branded as “new” is really debatable, as the community has been saying more and more, louder and louder.

I think this is an evo game. It’s essentially the same game since FH3, but with different maps. we’re really just playing expansion packs at this point, but minus the original content, which is illogical and a rip-off.

Forza 5 feels like a placeholder between old and new game engines and consoles, plain and simple.

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