Build Cars and Tuning Discussion

Just what it says on the tin here guys/girls, this is meant for a general tuning discussion.

Try and keep your discussion non specific to models and as general as possible about the tuning tools and different build options we have and how they relate, that kind of thing.

I’m not really a tuner but I normally start off by knocking out some laps then adjusting my tire pressures to around 32psi and sort out the camber so the heat in the tires are even… After that well that’s where I’m lost… like how do I fine tune my spring rate for example? What should it be and what should I consider when deciding?

I normally screw up my car at that point…

How do you guys tune? What’s your methods and what do you use to fine tweak?

Let it rip and this could help a lot
No requests just share your methods and knowledge.

Peace

NOTE: This thread was edited on February 3rd to incorporate the art of Building cars to the discussion.

1 Like

Firstly hello and this is a good idea for those new to tuning. I would recommend people first read Worm’s tuning guide to get a better understanding of the adjustments and how they affect the car.

Secondly I would recommend raising you tire pressures slightly in this game. 33-34psi works best for me but Worm recommends staying between 33-35psi.

Thirdly setting the spring rates or how to come about adjusting the spring rates is a hotly debated topic. Softer springs seem to be the right choice but not too soft. I would start by reducing the spring rates by 10-20% and then start adjusting them as needed. I try and keep my fine tuning adjustments between 5-10 lbs per adjustment. Give the car a few corners or a lap to get a feel for it and then make further adjustments. Make sure the car doesn’t bottom out! Use the rebound settings to gain that last little bit of grip.

Anti-roll bars are key tool for adjusting oversteer and understeer. Finding the correct amount of body roll is a little tricky and can also be a bit of personal preference. I prefer a bit of body roll but not to much. I use the shock telemetry screen to find the right amount of offset between the right and left side of the car in the corner. Beware setting the bars too stiff will cause a loss of grip witch many may my diagnose this as too stiff of springs.

I normally lower the psi so the tyres warm up quicker and i havent got a method to setting my suspension apart from i tend to make the rear softer than the front to aid in reducing rear oversteer but this also varies depending on if the cars is rwd or awd.

Theres a good guide to setting yr suspension which was posted by TG WORMBURNER,Sorry i would post the link but i dont know how to do that.

go Here lot’s of great info and discussion.

The guide is a definite must read for new and confident tuners IMO. Go read it people.

I like the AR and Spring advice, that helps me out some and will others.

So on the subject of telemetry and how to use it. The tires part is pretty much the only part I use but does anyone know how to use the rest for example the spring rates part can be used with AR but what offsets should I or others be looking for and this may seem stupid how do I know when I’m bottoming out?

I like to use the offset for getting a baseline on my ARB. I shoot for and offset of .3-.4 between inside and outside with slightly more in the rear. Also using the spring shock dyno to see how much the suspension travel and compression I have. In FM4 the dyno seemed more accurate and would flash red when you would bottom out the car or shock. If you bottom out the white line will jump too the top of the bar fully compressing the shock. Also you might see sparks under the car or hear a slight rubbing or chattering noise. A banging sound is pretty self explanatory and will usually upset the car but the other sounds might not be so apparent.

I use a calculator to do a bulk of my tuning work for me, but in general terms this is how I treat each component in my tuning process.
There is no die-hard right or wrong in tuning, do what works for you.

TIRES-
I start at 28psi cold, then adjust them for 34psi hot, AFTER the rest of the tune is closer to finalized.
It takes a several miles at race speed to get up to hot temps of 180+

SPRINGS-
I use the springs as my primary gross tuning point for under/oversteer. I reference the weight of the car, the drivetype(fwd,rwd,awd), and the known balances of other settings to come to a basic spring setting. Typically my combined spring value will be approx 36~38% of the vehicles weight, but there are exceptions for specialized builds.
I bias spring strength slightly rearward for FWD.
I bias spring strength strongly rearward for AWD.
I bias spring strength forward for RWD.

ANTI-ROLL BARS-
This is tricky, but in general I use a ratio of front to rear balance that is based inversely on supporting the weight of the car and biased to the drive type. This ratio is designed to compliment the spring bias not work against it from an under/oversteer perspective. In this way I don’t have to worry very much about fine tuning these components.
It also compliments the drive type characteristics of all the cars very well.
This is something new I’ve found that is both real world realistic and seemingly effective for FM5*.
This wasn’t true for former versions of FM.
In addition I use a variable based on vehicle weight that creates a stronger strength for heavier vehicles and a weaker one for lighter vehicles.
Once these values are in I do not alter them to fine tune over/understeer, there are other settings that have finer effects.

DAMPERS-
Bump is adjusted, based on spring strength, to an initial setting that is primarily complimentary to bump absorption and initial weight transfer response. I only adjust bump in certain unstable tunes that don’t like curbs.

Rebound is a bread and butter adjustment that primarily is used for chassis response during the three phases of cornering, turn-in and trail braking, mid-corner transition, and corner exit throttle roll-on. The initial setup is based on a ratio of weight distribution, but also biased to the spring balance(which is already biased to drive type).
A major majority of my fine tuning occurs here as is tweaked around how the throttle and brake inputs make the car react through a corner and over crests.

CAMBER and CASTER-
Rear camber is easy to set at a fixed value based on perceptive rear grip squat and dive situations.
Front camber is the same, except that the added dynamic camber of the caster setting allows for a lower static value, and better braking stability, and initial turn-in response.
Caster is set high, but modified based on chassis weight distribution, with lighter front loading needing more aggressive value.
Both front and rear camber can be modified by downforce, but FM5s telemetry doesn’t seem pickup on this factor like FM4s did.

TOE-
Minimized as close to zero as possible, but frequently tweaked by -.1 or -.2 rear to add stability for a variety of situations.

GEARING-
1st is set to a partial wheel-spin, full or partial throttle launch.
The top gear is set as an overdriven gear for top speed, unless aerodynamic loads are high.
The final drive is set to compliment both first and the top gears.
The middle gears depth are set to compliment the hp and tq curve strengths.
Gear tuning can affect on-throttle and downshift/engine braking chassis balance, so I try to get it tuned early, and then address it to a finer level later on if the chassis is too on-throttle loose.

AERODYNAMICS-
Set for high speed grip.
I favor front to rear ratios of between 1:2 and 2:3
I almost ALWAYS use both adjustable or both non-adjustable parts.
Balance is based on high speed handling feel.
I try to match 120mph G-forces to 60mph G-forces if possible, but it depends on class and feel.

TIRE WIDTH-
Usually a 4-wheel matched set for fwd and awds.
Rwd cars usually benefit from a staggered set of tires, with the rears no more than about 40% wider than the fronts.

DIFFS-
Set to predetermined ratios, but based on a “felt” center that compliments drive type biases.
Adjusted only if spring and rebound adjustments are ineffective.

BRAKES-
Adjusted initially to between 54~52%, but tweaked for trail-braking and raw braking performance.
Staggered tire widths and aerodynamic downforces also affect braking balance.

*While FM5 is a great sim, there are many aspects of the tuning that are not realistic. The differentials for example act very much like mechanical lockers, as opposed to the more realistic and sporty limited slip or torque biasing versions. The alignments and dampers are also very simplified in relation to their real world counterparts.
Still, I try to give FM the benefit of the doubt and try to use realistic ratios for tuneable components.

From what I’ve studied, a real world FWD car with a forward weight bias generally has firm front ARB’s and soft rear ARB’s, even when motion rates and leverages are considered. To make this chassis rotate more effectively in a race situation the rear ARB strength is generally increased to a ratio than may match or even exceed the rear. This ratio helps to neutralize the understeer characteristics of a FWD chassis.
A RWD car with a forward weight bias is less unbalanced from a drivetype perspective, but if we bias the spring strength to properly support the weight of the front without being too firm(understeer) then there is still a strong potential for oversteer. To compliment this potential understeer we must promote turning grip to the front and simultaneously not induce oversteer from the rear. How is this accomplished? By controlling the independent suspension deflections of the rear tires by binding them together with a relatively firm ARB. This is exactly what is done in rear world racecars. Promote front end grip with firm springs and a moderate ARB, and promote rotation of the rear with a firm ARB matched to softer springs.
Where this concept gets interesting is in cars like the RWD rear weight biased Porsche 911 type of chassis.
Because this chassis is naturally unstable with the drivetype and weight concentrating arounnd the rear axle it becomes a very tricky and sensitive car to tune.
The front of the car can be very sensitive to steering inputs and so might benefit from only a very slight spring bias. By this same small amount however it will still need some ARB to keep it stable.
The rear of the car needs somewhat firm support to allow throttle lift turn-in, but also need some ARB to control the roll under acceleration. The fine line here is using the springs to control squat and dive, the ARBs to control braking and throttle stability, and using the dampers to control the speeds at which it all happens.
Again, unsprung motion rates and leverages considered, 911’s typically have springs rates very close to their 40/60 weight distribution, and ARB’s that are close to 50/50 or 45/55.

After literally weeks of trial and error tuning my A-class Ruf CTR2 I came to this realization of balances. Once this car was finally dialed into the equations, my calculator tunes all started to fall into place. The key observation I made was that the weight distribution, drivetype, and ARBs need to be treated as a single tuneable unit, and one that supports the anti-roll balance, spring bias, and steering of the chassis. Another aspect of these relationships is that the damper tuning became very sensitive to even the slightest changes, a very realistic effect in my opinion.

One of the basic versions of this Ruf CTR2 tune can be found in my “Feuerdog Tuning” Marketplace post.

2 Likes

Well, I always slap a neutral base tune on and take the car for a spin to see what it’s like and what it needs. Having an array of formulas and rules may produce evenly shaped cookies, but it is hardly going to bring out the best in any particular batch of dough. If people want a good place to start, start with an open mind and a car that is balanced according to its weight. Also, 90% of it is in getting the build right. You have to be severely off the rails to completely ruin a good build with a mediocre tune. Still, to each their own. It is a game after all.

I agree 100%.

However, in my experience starting with a spring base that matches weight distribution, results in far more unnecessary work and a tendency to be hindered by the tuning ranges of other variables.
To me, in order to find the best in the dough, you need to start with an established recipe,…only from here does the refinement of the TUNE progress.

Builds are an entirely different subject.

My experience of the game thus far has been that arbitrarily biasing suspension elements at variance with the weight distribution of the car is typically unnecessary. Some people are still doing it, I guess out of preference or habit, or because it ‘just works’ for them. The cars I have tuned have not required it, and have not been complicated by its absence. I have little doubt that there are cars in the game where doing so might provide a benefit, but by no means does it appear to be necessary, or even advisable as a default. I have had to do very little other than tweak overall spring rates, aero and ARBs in order to get optimum handling out of a car. I believe a lot of people, yourself included, are over-complicating it. This is a game. There is little or no point in bringing the real world to it. The best tuners have always approached it on its own terms.

I understand the blank slate tuning process, I really do. I just feel that my slate is merely a different color of blank than yours.

I didn’t just “create” a set of arbitrary values to derive my calculations, and the calculations are just a stepping stone to a more refined tune.

I’ve tested and evaluated dozens of cars, in different classes, with different drive types, weight distributions, etc, etc. to formulate tables of known, quantifiable, results. It literally took me months of tuning to find these values. The only way I can think to describe it right now is to say that I didn’t tune just one car. I created a tune for the game, or more precisely, a single tune to decipher any possible combination of variables(cars) the game gave me.

Does this approach work for every car? Of course not.
The unknown odd flyer variables are there to keep things interesting, and like ive said, the calculation results are a step in the process not necessarily a final result.

Have I not been successful? I am not the fastest of drivers, but almost all of my tunes have accomplished top 1% times, and in some cases top 1000 or better from D class to S class.
I’m not a fan of the upper classes, but my testing indicates that the results of my tuning should be comparable.
Regardless of their success, I have never promised that the calculator tunes would provide anything more than a stable and predictable ALTERNATE starting point for further refinement.

Over complicating the game? I disagree completely.
Two reasons:

  1. The black art of tuning is very complex set of interactive inputs and feedbacks, with each alteration of a tune being a compromise of performance aspects. To a seasoned tuner the fine tuning process deals with minutia, and usually a specific hierarchy of what to adjust and what not to. The very reason we have such passionate discussion about tuning, and a thriving tuning marketplace, is because it is not an easy task to come to grips with and feel consistently successful at.
  2. The very reason I created my calculators, and this goes back to at least the GT2, GT3, and Forza 1 days, was to take away the complexity of tuning. I didn’t want to spend hours and hours on each car lapping and tweaking, rinse and repeat, over and over. I wanted a simple tool that would take the information I gave it and spit out a solid tune. Not a precision entity mind you, but something close. Something that would save me the complexity and time of mundane rinse and repeat tuning.

The calculators from the back side are quite complex. But from a users perspective they are quite simple.

As for wanting to keep things realistic…
Yes, Forza has always been, and will always be a game. As real is it may seem at times, you can never trust it to accurately represent the real world.
And yet almost everything it and the community does IS an attempt to recreate realism.
I base part of my calculations on a realistic relationship that I hadn’t discovered before. And this relationship allowed me to bind and finalize my calculations into a cohesive entity, is that wrong?
A major part of my enjoyment in Forza comes from driving my cars with the knowledge that I created the set of relationships that interact between my controller and the virtual track,…and that maybe, just maybe, I can suspend the “game” from my belief and imagine that I’m a great tuner and driver instead.

Sorry, not trying to derail the thread.

4 Likes

So when we talk about tuning relationships which there are many I’m sure, what should we be thinking about…

I know that camber and caster are related in that caster will induce more negative camber, which if you’re looking to add more negative camber and then your tires are setup perfectly then you might end up with too much negative camber if you wish to then adjust the caster and therefore need to go and readjust the camber but do springs rates affect camber. Would a softer spring induce more negative camber?

I’m sure that downforce has a distinct relationship with springs and if you’re happy with your springs but then increase your downforce then you may need to go and reconsider you spring settings. Do you dampers have the same effect on springs? On the the subject of springs as well, would you say that they’re the type of setting that once you have it set and you’re happy then you shouldn’t need to go back and adjust, or at least it wouldn’t be the first place you go to to make minor corrections.
A lot of tuning for me is making a judgement call on where to adjust next and again the worm guide gives you some great scenarios to help make a decision in these instances but I personally find myself then bouncing all over the tuning screen and then ultimately ruining my setup. I think this is me lacking in Tuning knowledge.

Up to now I think as a process I’ll set my Initial alignment and PSI’s then look for an even spring rate and ride height to begin. I love the feedback you get from adjusting dampers such as softer front give you more turn in, I find that a solid change that I can rely on.

These are all questions to the community that I personally have

If the suspension movement causes negative camber in compression, and positive camber in extension, which it does in Forza, then technically, YES. Softer suspension can induce greater negative front camber when the chassis dives(under deceleration).

YES. However, my testing(telemetry) of spring compression under aerodynamic load in FM5 has shown little if any affect on the spring deflection. In FM4 this loading was more readily apparent.
Logic and real world data supports this idea, but we all know that Forza is merely a game and not always accurate. Tune in a manner that gets results is the best advice here.

Dampers are suspension speed control devices. They allow and/or restrict the compression and/or extension of the suspension via resistance. The same forces are at work during weight transfers and suspension articulation, but dampers simple control how much of that articulation occurs over time. Forza dampers are very simple, but don’t think of them in terms of weight support, they are tuned to adjust the speed of the springs movement.
There is a performance relationship between aerodynamic downforce and damping, but in the physics of Forza its not really worth considering.
I would say that yes, at single tick increments, springs are a major adjustment that affect the fundamental balance of the chassis,…and dampers are a finer adjustment.

Learning to tune can be just as elaborate as tuning itself. Learning how the different components of a tune interact with each other is fundamental in knowing what to adjust, by how much, and where to compromise.
Al, I can offer is make small adjustments, test often, and reset hat doesn’t work, eventually you’ll narrow it down, and with practice you’ll get faster at fixing issues.

Read a book, it’s called: Carroll Smiths - Engineer in your pocket. It’s a an applicable guide to addressing specific handling issues with specific adjustments. It is far more real world than is needed in Forza, but it can give you a great heads up in how to address handling issues.

Good stuff Feuerdog. Interesting about the F/R ratios and ARB/springs.

Good infos all around really.

I’m kinda wondering about ride height. Some stock tunes have this set as HIGH as possible, and I can’t quantify why that would be necessary, but knowing why, would provide another option, something else to consider.

Ride height in relation to suspension travel in Forza has always been a little unrealistic to me,…and the generic telemetry data is unreliable or inaccurate at best.
In Forza 5 cars like the VW Beetle seem to have an induced wandering effect if the ride height is to low.

Technically though, lower is better, unless there is an adverse handling effect, or bottoming out becomes an issue.

@Sketchy here is what fuerdog was referring too:

EFFECT ON

VEHICLE – POSSIBLE CAUSES

Straight Line Instability

  • Too much rear wheel toe-out.
  • Not enough rear downforce.
  • Too much front downforce.
  • Not enough rear toe-in (under hard acceleration) –presumably for RWD.
  • Too much front toe (either in or out) – car darts over bumps.
  • Front ARB is way too stiff – car darts over bumps.

Instability Under Brakes

  • Front end darts or wanders – too much front brake bias.
  • Car wants to spin – too much rear brake bias.

Response

  • Car feels heavy and unresponsive.
    o Too much downforce.
  • Car feels sloppy and is slow to take a set in corners.
    o Too little shock.
    o Too much body roll (not enough spring and/or ARB).
  • Car responds too quickly, is twitchy, and slides easily.
    o Too little downforce.
    o Too much shock, too much spring, and/or too much ARB.
    o Too much tire pressure.

Understeer

  • Corner entry understeer – car won’t turn in at all.
    o Front
    tires not wide enough.
    o Too much front roll stiffness – ARBs and/or springs.
    o Not enough front bump – shocks.
    o Not enough front downforce.
    o Too much dynamic camber on front wheels (not enough static negative camber).
  • Corner entry understeer – car turns in initially then starts to push.
    o Too much front toe-in.
    o Rebound too stiff – shocks (not enough droop travel).
    o Not enough front downforce.
    o Bump not stiff enough – shocks.
  • Corner entry understeer – car turns in and then darts.
    o Insufficient front suspension travel in either or both directions – shocks.

Oversteer

  • Corner exit oversteer – gets progressively worse from the time throttle is applied.
    o Too much rear roll stiffness.
    o Too much rear camber.
    o Too little rear downforce.
    o Too little rear toe-in.
    o Not enough rear spring, shock, or ARB – allows car to roll over on outside rear wheel.
  • Corner exit oversteer (sudden) - car takes its set then breaks loose.
    o Not enough rear suspension travel (too much shock in either bump, rebound, or both).

CAUSES – EFFECT ON VEHICLE

Springs

  • Too much spring – overall
    o Harsh and choppy ride, lack of tire compliance.
    o Can’t put power down on corner exit - excessive wheelspin.
    o Car slides too much.
  • Too much spring – front
    o Initial understeer.
    o Front end breaks loose in corners.
    o Front end breaks loose over bumps.
  • Too much spring – rear
    o Oversteer when power is applied on corner exit.
    o Excessive wheelspin.
  • Too little spring – overall
    o Car bottoms out.
    o Car feels like it’s floating.
    o Sloppy response.
    o Car is slow to take its set.
  • Too little spring – front
    o Front end hits ground under brakes.
    o Too much body roll on corner entry.
    o Initial understeer – car won’t point in.
  • Too little spring – rear
    o Too much squat under acceleration, and the resultant increase in negative camber.
    o Car falls over on outside rear wheel causing power-on oversteer.

Anti-Roll Bars

  • Too much ARB – overall
    o Very sudden turning response and little feel.
    o Car slides or skates instead of taking its set.
    o May dart over one wheel bumps or diagonal bumps.
  • Too much ARB – front
    o Corner entry understeer that gets progressively worse.
    o Steady state understeer in the middle of sweeping turns.
  • Too much ARB – rear
    o Corner exit oversteer when throttle is applied.
    o Excessive sliding coming out of corners.
  • Too little ARB – overall
    o Car is sloppy and lacks response.
    o Car is slow to transition, especially in chicanes and esses.
    o Car rolls too much resulting in too much dynamic, positive camber and the resultant loss of cornering power due to decrease in tire traction.
  • Too little ARB – front
    o Car rolls over onto outside tire on corner entry then ‘washes out’ (understeers).
    o Car lacks steering response and is slow to change direction.
  • Too little ARB – rear
    o Back end doesn’t want to rotate on corner exit under power (difficult to throttle steer).

Shock Absorbers

  • Too much shock – overall
    o Very sudden car with harsh ride, sliding, and wheel patter.
    o Car crashes over road surface irregularities.
  • Too much rebound adjustment
    o Wheels do not return to road surface quickly after displacement.
    o Inside wheel pulls off the road surface in a corner.
    o Lack of tire compliance over bumps and surface undulations.
    o Car may be jacked down in long corners.
  • Too much bump adjustment
    o Initial reaction to bumps and curbs is harsh.
    o Initial chassis roll slow to develop.
    o Car slides rather than sticks.
    o Driven wheels hop when the power is put down.
  • Too little shock – overall
    o Car floats a lot in ride and oscillates after bumps (underdamped).
    o Slow and sloppy response.
    o Chassis rolls too quickly.
  • Too little rebound adjustment
    o Oscillates after bumps.
    o Doesn’t put the power down well.
  • Too little bump adjustment
    o Initial bump reaction soft.
    o Car dives and squats a lot under brakes and under power.
    o Car rolls quickly and falls over outside tires – front tire on corner entry and rear tire on exit.

Wheel Alignment

  • Front toe-in – too much
    o Car darts over bumps, under the brakes, and during corner entry.
    o Car won’t point into corners.
  • Front toe-out – too much
    o Car wanders under the brakes.
    o Straight line instability especially over one wheel and diagonal bumps.
    o Car may point into corners then refuse to take a set
    o Understeer as a result of tire scrub in long corners.
  • Rear toe-in – too much
    o Rear feels light and unstable on corner entry.
    o Car slides a bit in corners rather than rolling freely.
  • Rear toe-in – too little
    o Power on oversteer during corner exit.
  • Rear toe-out – any
    o Power oversteer during corner exit.
    o Straight line instability.
  • Front wheel caster – too much
    o Excessive physical steering effort (probably non-applicable with the XBOX controller)
  • Front wheel caster – too little
    o Too little steering feel and feedback (also probably non-applicable with the XBOX controller)
  • Camber – too much negative
    o Inside of tire will be hotter than the rest and wear faster.
    o Front tires – reduced braking capacity (dive)
    o Rear tires – reduced acceleration capacity (squat)
  • Camber – too much positive
    o Outside of tire will be hotter than the rest and wear faster.
    o Rear tires – corner exit oversteer and reduced tire traction.
    o Rear tires - If extreme may cause corner entrance instability.
    o Front tires – too much body roll and understeer after car turns in.

Tires

  • Too much tire pressure
    o Harsh ride.
    o Excessive wheel patter, sliding and wheelspin.
    o High temperature at center of tire.
  • Too little tire pressure
    o Soft and mushy response.
    o High tire temperatures at inner and outer edges.
    o Reduced contact patch

Works nicely as a guide to understanding what you are feeling when driving the car. Works pretty well in terms of Forza.

Thanks ECT great

I want to ask a few honest questions?

If I learn to tune, and compared with the best tunes out there, how much faster can I really expect to get?

Do top tuners adjust their LB timed tunes when releasing them to the community so we can nearly but never quite achieve the same time using them?

All in all will learning to tune make me a better and faster driver?

learning to tune will not make you a faster driver… to become a faster driver you must practice very hard learn the tracks . go into rivals using only stock cars , set a few times then try to beat them them go from there with just adding tires or small non adjustable parts and better your times

I agree with you there bud, I need to get on and practice more. I used to play Forza 3 24/7 and then it got much less as Forza 4 came out but I used to do ridiculous stints of 15-20 hours before I’d go to sleep(the best practice I ever had) but times have changed and I have a house, job and kids now but the passion and thrill to race is still there and I don’t think I’ve lost much of my skill even if it does take an extra coffee before I play to get me focussed lol :slight_smile:

It’s the weekend so I’ll look forward to picking these up and giving them a shot tonight and over the rest of the weekend. Thanks!
I’m gonna take my time with tuning. Read back through this and your tuning guide thread and pick up some more info, I’ve read that guide a lot in the past I just need to put some of it into practice before I forget the stuff I’ve learnt again, which is my main problem as I don’t actually struggle understanding the prinicples.

Thanks Mech, that’s great advice. I can pick up a track in about 20 laps to the point where I’m able to run in top 100’s but for the sake of tuning as well that’s a fantastic way to start IMO. I’ll use that!

So when tuning then do you think it would be a better idea to put on the full build first then tune or gradually add new parts and then tune?

I’m not giving up on tuning!!! haha

My cars are what I run on the board leaderboard.

Learning to build cars will make you much faster than tuning them but you can get as quick as you are willing to go. Don’t sell yourself short