I just spent an hour on this, and as usual, I know my best lap was far from perfect, but it was 54.2 vs 50.0 for #1 and I was struggling to see where I was losing such a large amount of time. So I watched a replay, it was actually the Europe #1 of 50.5 I watched by mistake, rather than the world #1.
As far as I can tell, he’s simply able to turn the steering wheel more than me. I compared speed and steering wheel position in the telemetry around the final hairpin, and it seemed he was both going faster than me AND had the steering wheel turned more. I’ve tried both normal and sim steering and can’t replicate his ability to turn the steering wheel for a given speed, so I can only assume he must be using a wheel rather than a controller? Is there any way to see which someone is using other than inferring it in this way?
The gaps at the top look quite large, 2 seconds between 1st and 10th over 50-52 seconds. Laige is 2.2 seconds slower than #1, whereas obviously we’d normally expect him to be in the ballpark of the #1 time. The 2 seconds from me to Laige is about the gap I’d intuitively expect based on the %s I am behind #1 in other situations.
So I can only think that for some specific combinations of car, track and conditions, the game’s manipulation of steering range is causing a huge disadvantage for the controller vs a wheel.
Has anyone got any more insights into this? I’m reluctantly starting to conclude you just have to get a wheel to enjoy the game to the full, but I don’t really want the clutter of all that equipment. It seems a shame if the only problem is that the game is artificially limiting the steering that can be achieved with a controller to below the optimal amount in some situations.
I was going to ask if there’s anyone on here who can get within 2 secs of #1 using a controller, but as there’s only 10 people in the world who are within 2 secs of #1, the chances one of those people is posting on here seems slim.
I have to be honest, there were a few career races that I wasn’t good enough to do so I just put the game into Super Easy and held down the RT, didn’t get and CR/XP but still got the gift car/prize
Wheels arent “faster” than controllers. In many ways wheel users are at a disadvantage in forza compared to controllers. Laige is one of the best drivers in forza but hes not the fastest on every track with every car. So give credit where credit is due, the guy is obviously very fast with this particular car/track combo or this leaderboard time came before they fixed the friction assist issue they had for the first month.
The thing is, I can generally see how good a performance is when I watch the replay. Rayzer’s lap around Hockenheim for the Dec bounty looked nigh on mm perfect - if I tried to copy his line and went just the tiniest bit farther, the lap was dirty, he absolutely nailed the track limits. For the Jan bounty, I looked at the early #1 and it looked good, but some way short of Rayzer perfection, and sure enough, it wasn’t #1 by the end. For the recent Delivering The Sting rivals, I looked at the #1 replay, and I just thought how on earth is this guy so fast, it looks utterly rubbish. Turns out he’d cheated, and the time was removed. So I do trust my intuition about what I’m seeing on screen. Now, I am NOT saying that this particular one involves cheating, but a huge amount of the time in the lap is spent simply waiting for the car to rotate through the required angle before getting back onto the throttle, and when I watch his replay, I don’t see anything remotely approaching Rayzer-esque use of the track limits, so I find myself looking for some other explanation as to how he seems to simply be able to turn more at higher speed than I can with the controller. I can’t see that there are any other inputs that can be provided once you’re going at a particular speed around a long bend, and have the stick fully over to the side. That is the maximum amount you can steer, and he looks to be able to simply steer more and hold a higher speed around the bend. So the only explanation I can see is that he’s using a wheel and that is what is allowing the steering wheel to be turned further. I’m happy to be proved wrong if someone wants to bang out a sub 51 time using the controller to show it can be done.
The wheel doesnt allow you to turn further than the controller, period. One of the issues wheel users run into is the fact that the wheel is programmed as a controller which has many unnatural characteristics. The only type of situation that a wheel is better than a controller in forza is on an oval track.
There are situations where deadzones can be tweaked on the controller which can positively effect lap times. People also have the elite controller which can also help with their speed.
The time could also be glitched, but since you said there are others around that time it usually means its achievable. Understeer isnt 100% dependent on speed. Weight transfer plays a huge role with regards to the friction of the tires. The fastest players are able to not scrub as much speed as normal people. So when you see their wheel turning more its because theres less friction not necessarily less speed.
I am a wheel user, and I can tell you everything that is said above, is incorrect. On an understeer car/tune, when you rotate the wheel left or right to full lock during a corner,the front tires will begin to melt.
I am a wheel user as well, i actually raced with you a few times with weapon. The real steering wheel may turn but it doesnt register once the in game steering reaches that max point of friction. So you can turn the real wheel all you want its not giving you any better turn in. Understeer is understeer, so while the wheel allows us to melt the tires by going passed 100% peak friction and on the controller it doesnt most likely because theres an inch of travel and 99% of people would just be wrecking themselves, the percentage of friction is the same on both.
There must be a difference, I have a friend who I know is using a wheel (Fanatec), and he has now driven this rivals event, so I can see how much he’s able to turn the steering wheel. You simply cannot turn it this far with a controller. I’ve added Laige for reference, who must be using a controller, as he’s turning the wheel about the same amount as me. However, I can see that in the following two screenshots, although there is a huge difference in how far the steering wheel has been turned, the white steering indicator in the top right corner looks roughly the same between the two. So although the game is allowing a wheel to turn the steering wheel more, it appears to be ignoring the extra movement downstream of that. So I’ll go with your explanation that I must be driving in a way that is reducing the available grip, and I need to work on getting the game to allow my white steering marker to move further, and ignore the steering wheel position as it doesn’t seem to correspond to what the front wheels are doing.
There are some other things to note based on the two images.
He is hitting the apex spot on, and you don’t.
You are taking a different line, probably because you have missed the ideal turning point, most likely caused by late braking.
This the reason why he can carry more speed through the corner.
About the steering angle.
Replays are not 100% accurate, so don’t rely on them…but there is something else to consider about the FM series.
When you loose front end grip, the game just limits the steering, this is why you feel understeer most of the time.
(Obviously there is no proof of this, but so many of us experienced the same thing…)
Because he is taking the racing line, not just carrying more speed, the car also has more grip.
(The car is turning in a larger radius,)
Have you checked your controllers dead zone?
It should 0-100.
Wheels allow you to be more precise with steering, and they also don’t have the steering filters that you get with joystick. With wheels you can steer to the level where tires start to squeal alot, with joystisck the maximum steering you get is to the point where you start to get the tire squel with a wheel.
Also, in replays the steering animations are not the same as ingame.
Laige probably didn’t care. He probably set a time and quit.
You can’t trust any rivals leaderboards. Since these are leaderboards with restrictive requirements, there is only a small portion of the player base who really cares about these boards. You would get an accurate picture if class based leaderboards and homologation leaderboards were in rivals as a lot more players care about these.
Generally speaking the most accurate would be esport related leaderboards which you will see soon. Laige will be at least top 10 for most car/track options.
As for the pictures it looks like the top picture the car is understeering which is preventing the car from turning in better and the bottom picture is hitting the apex perfectly and not fighting understeer which then allows more turning input.
I’m aware they all use a controller at Forza RC finals, as I’ve watched the recording on youtube. I’ve looked at the rules and can’t see anything requiring them to use a controller, so is that their own choice, and they could take their own full seat/wheel/pedals setup if they wanted?
They all use controller except for JSR AziDhk. It’s by choice. This was discussed in one of the semifinals a while back by the hosts and the topic comes up every time in every FRC live stream chat. The folks chimming in on who uses what are either teammates or close friends.
I’m pretty sure most if not all are using SIM steering as well. I know for sure raceboy and lightning do via party chat conversations that occurred in practice sessions.
Some do have their own wheels and use them for other games. Others have won wheels in the past as well but still use controller.
I’d be willing to bet my lunch money those sub-51 times were set back when friction assist was still usable (and I eat lunch at some pretty expensive places).
Try it yourself, and see what lap-times you can manage. If the event prevents that assist (I haven’t checked) then go into free play, select that track in the rain and select the same car. I may try that tonight, just to see for myself.
As far as wheel users being able to turn the wheels farther, even if that is true, it wouldn’t account for the big difference in lap times. It just wouldn’t.
Thanks, I think you’ve hit the nail on the head there. I know when I watch a replay whether I’m looking at exceptional driving or not, and there’s nothing exceptional about it, he’s just able to turn more at a higher speed. I thought it was the wheel, but as I think we’ve ruled that out now, friction assist (which would make the wet track behave as if it were dry?) seems like a plausible explanation. It isn’t just Laige who’s miles off the pace, bbb0x is also about the same time as Laige, and he’s currently just 0.1 off #1 for this month’s first bounty hunter rivals, I have a feeling the people killing him on the Brands Hatch Spec Challenge aren’t going to be showing the same relative performance in the bounty hunter event.
One thing, other than your line and possibly speed through the corners:
The front wheels are “always” 100% in effort, if you will. So if you are turning without applying the brakes or accelerator you will have 100% of the front wheels doing a directional function. Of course, this depends on the speed with which the turn is being attempted. Too fast at any point may lose grip on the surface, and with loss of grip you might as well be on ice because you will not have control of the direction which is then likely skidding toward the outside of the turn.
If you are braking heavily while turning, dependent upon your settings for applying the brakes within the tune, you may be having (just a figure for example) 80% applying to braking, and therefore only 20% of your input is available for directional control. There’s the 100% again, which is why braking is recommended as you’re approaching a turn in a straight line. Getting down to the proper turning speed and off the brakes will then give you 100% directional control (provided you’re not too fast and causing the front wheels to slide).
The old adage of “slow in, fast out” can be applied because attaining the proper speed with straight-line braking (“slow in”) should set you up for the angle to reach the turn apex properly, AND will allow you to smoothly control the vehicle’s actions with the accelerator as you’re heading through the corner and toward the next straight. The more speed you carry out of the turn (“fast out”) means faster speeds on the following straight of the course.
