2002 Chevrolet Camaro vs 2002 Pontiac Trans Am- Why the discrepancy? BIG WRITEUP WITH SOURCES!

Small disclaimer: I am not an expert driver so it’s very possible to record faster times than I managed. However, when I talked to a friend that is much faster than me, he confirmed the observations I’m laying out in this post.

The 2002 Chevrolet Camaro SS and the 2002 Pontiac Trans Am WS6 are very similar cars. In fact, one could say they’re twins. They both have the same Corvette-derived LS1 V8 with functional hood scoops feeding it cold air, and both have the very same T56 6-speed transmission and 7.5" 10-bolt differential with identical gearing (at least in-game, different ratios were a factory option). The brakes and tire profile is the same, too. The similarities continue inside as well, with both examples modeled in FM7 being well-optioned, with optional leather, T-tops, and traction control, in addition to power windows, locks, and driver seat. If these two are so similar, then why is their performance so different? This question led me on a fact-finding mission.

Forza Motorsport 7 Models the 2002 Camaro rather faithfully (though I find it a bit disappointing that the hood and rear hatch aren’t interactive in Forzavista). It drives like a marriage between older muscle cars of yore and something substantially more modern, which is partially why I enjoy driving it so much. (That, and the '99 Z28 in my driveway.) It’s got some weight and roll to it, but thanks to its wide tires and torque it can generally find a line on a corner and power right out. With a few upgrades it’s a star in B class, but for the purposes of this discussion (for now, at least) we’re going to keep both cars stock.

The Camaro’s tuning and garage menus of the game give data that’s more or less analogous to expectations: 0-60mph in 5.19 seconds, 0-100 in 11.84, top speed of 164.1 (though with the very tall 6th gear, you may not ever reach it). These figures line up perfectly to a Motor Trend test I looked up to research this post. However, the brakes appear to function worse than reality in the menu, giving us 60-0/100-0 distances of 134.8/339.8 ft, instead of an expected 120/329 ft. I’m willing to bet that this discrepancy mostly has to do with how the game calculates this test; it has a habit of locking tires. However, there’s another discrepancy that’s more difficult to account for: the weight distribution. We’re given a 55% front, 45% rear balance, which isn’t the same as the sources I have, which provide a 56/44 F/R balance. While this is only 35.54 pounds being “misplaced” it does mean that the car is actually a little less nose-heavy than it should be. On the subject of weight, the depiction in FM7 seems a little heavy overall. Every source I can find puts the car’s curb weight well below the hefty 3554 lbs the game claims, though if laden with 16 gallons of gas the number seems much more reasonable. I don’t have any real skidpad data to compare to for the amount of G-force the car can make, so I’m willing let that go. Additionally, while I put little faith in the PI system or “bars” for the cars, I’ll go ahead and list them here: Speed 6.5, Handling 4.7, Acceleration 7.5, Braking 4.5. Its PI rating is C/481, which puts it a bit above homologated “Classic Road Racers” cars.

The 2002 model year was the swan song of Pontiac’s F-body offering: the Firebird. The Firebird Trans Am WS6 was known for being the more aggressive and outlandishly-styled of the F-body twins. With a bulging ram-air hood, a total of six air inlets on the car’s front and a stubborn insistence upon using pop-up headlights, it’s easy to see why. Though the hood and rear are still not interactive it at least looks very good in FM7. It feels a bit nose-heavy and more prone to understeer than its twin, which is strange because both cars have the same track, tire, tire profile, and suspension tuning. While there is a bit more weight up front from the pop-up headlights, I have my doubts for that being an explanation.

The problems don’t end there for Forza’s rendition of the WS6. Its somewhat unimpressive 0-60mph time of 5.20 seconds and 0-100 of 12.5. Both of these figures aren’t exactly what one would expect compared to real-world testing, which shows the WS6 being at least as fast (if not slightly faster) than a Camaro SS in the quarter. Perhaps the least strange thing about this cavalcade of numbers is how the T/A manages to have a higher top speed (though again, the tall 6th gear will prevent you from ever attaining it). So what gives? It’s not the 3495 lb overall weight of the car, which is about 60 pounds less than its sister. (One of my sources gives this exact number for the curb weight of a manual T/A, while another claims it’s 3397. Annoyingly, neither specifies options.) Well, it’s not as simple as the car being heavy. It’s not balanced properly. FM7 models the car as having 58/42 front/rear distribution, which is wrong compared to both its Chevy twin and to the source I found. It should be balanced identically to the Camaro: 56/44. This makes for a total of 69.9 pounds that are “misplaced” on the car, which means that the car is understeering into corners more and not able to transfer as much weight rearward to help straight-line traction. This hurts the braking as well, and while I don’t believe the 60-0/100-0 distances of 136.0/341.5 ft thanks to the calculator locking the tires, it doesn’t make sense when MT claims a (MY 2000) WS6 they tested stopped from 60-0 in 121 feet, 12 better than the Camaro of that year. Just to be consistent, I’ll list off the “stats” the garage gives the car: Speed 6.3, Handling 4.6, Acceleration 7.2, Braking 4.3. Its PI is C/425, meaning that it’s (at least in theory) slower than homologated “Hot Hatch Icons”, “Vintage Sport Coupe” and “Rebirth of Muscle” cars.

To find out if all of this investigating translates into real advantages (and to check as to whether or not the '02 T/A is actually equal to the '02 Camaro but with 56 less PI) I drove each car for 8 laps at Sebring Full, in dry, sunny conditions. Why Sebring Full? I can be consistent on it. The results speak for themselves. Completing the 8 laps in the Camaro SS took 20:23.277, and my fastest lap was a 2:31.048. This makes my average lap a 2:32.909, including the out lap. Then I moved on to the Trans Am, and things got disappointing. The car seems noticeably slower in third and fourth gears. The shift points are the same, but it doesn’t seem to accelerate as well. The 8 laps took 21:07.682, a 44.405 second margin of defeat for the T/A. The fastest lap in the Pontiac was a 2:37.182, over 6 seconds slower than the best in the Camaro. The average lap (again, including the out lap) was a 2:38.460, 5.551 seconds slower than the Camaro’s average.

So after all this fun fact-finding and number crunching, I’m still left with questions:

  • Why is the weight distribution on both the 2002 Trans Am WS6 and 2002 Camaro SS wrong?
  • Why exactly is the 2002 Camaro SS so heavy?
  • Is there a factor like aerodynamic drag slowing down the 2002 Trans Am?

Sources:

http://www.transamworld.com/2002-firebird-specifications.php

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The Camaro looks more aerodynamic but I don’t know if that’s the reason… IMO the weight distribution plays a bigger factor.

There’s many cars with erroneous stats in forza games. These two in particular my brother and i took notice of in forza 4 with him being a firebird fan and me being a camaro fan. Motortrend did indeed get faster times with the firebird but in reality these cars are very similiar and if you had 10 of each to test theyd all be fairly close performance wise with each other. The firebird was heavier because of its headlights as well as the fact that most ws6 models were more well optioned than the ss models. But the firebirds ram air hood was a better design than the chevys so it did have a slight power advantage. Some were also equipped with a hurst shifter which wasnt available in the camaros which would also aid in its performance. The fact is forza is not a simulator and even if the stats of the cars were correctly portrayed they could be vastly different in the game than reality.

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Then why did I have sources that list the Firebird being lighter?
And why can’t I find a single shred of proof of the 58/42 distribution being the correct values? The few sources I can find show it being 56/44.

I also found the coupe versions being 56/44, but every thing that i have seen has the firebird being heavier. Curb weights(empty) were the low 3400s for the camaros and high 3400s for thr firebirds. So if they actually weighed these cars and went by gross weight youre looking at a good 250-350lbs more. If they only had the automatics available to test that would also add more weight.

So on one hand upwards of 3800lbs gross weight isnt out of the question for either one of these cars, but on the other they shouldve been rated pretty equally and theyre not so i agree with your assessment that these stats are wrong.

It couldve been for game balancing issues, it couldve been that chevy wanted the camaro to be faster when they licensed the car or it couldve been the actual programmer being a camaro fan and just wanted to stick it to firebird fanatics, i dont know. All i do know is turn 10 are certainly not going to change anything about the stats of any of these cars so it is what it is.

Agree with poster above … FM7 is not a racing sim and was not designed to be. If you’re looking for Forza to be real-world accurate down to the degree of detail in your post above, you’re going to end up disappointed in quite a few of Forza’s car models.

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Just repeat to yourself: it’s just a game; I should really just relax.

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I agree with all that’s been said.

Upgrades for example are given to a car according to balance, hence why some cars have different engine swaps even among the same family. Sometimes an FE car will have access to things its normal counterpart won’t, and vice-versa.

In Horizon 3 the Charger R/T could reach LOTS of power from a supercharger upgrade. Neither the Challenger R/T nor the Hemi Cuda, which have the same Hemi 426 under the hood as the Charger, could make that much power when fully upgraded.

Tire width upgrades don’t have any real world basis to my knowledge. I did search a bit hard and found that 345mm tires on old muscle cars is not a simple fit at all!

Three things you need to consider, 1- Motortrend testing is generally done with a sample set of 1 as in they get one car, often an early or pre-production car. With that being the case their performance stats are not always a reflection of the entire production run of a said car. 2- The cars in Forza tend to be the top trim level offered on each specific vehicle, there are some exceptions but usually its the top trim that’s represented with the in game models. 3- We have no idea where Forza gets their performance data from. Well, I at least have no clue, and can’t find where they source their information from. Anyway the point to be taken away from this is that it is just a game, not even a true simulation so there will be discrepancies when comparing the in game cars to their real life counterparts.

I dont know if it was the same in 2002, but I do know in the 90’s and older, a Camaro and a Trans Am may not have had the same engines. I know that prior even, the TAs had 455’s while the Camaro had a 454. Another example would be the Buick Grand National vs the Regal T-type. They were in essence the same car, same engine, tranny, all that, but the Grand national was always faster in the quarter mile.

Both cars had a LS1 from 1998 to 2002. They stopped receiving different engines in the third generation.

Yeah, but the Grand National, T-Type (other Buicks got this badge too; Riviera, LeSabre, etc.), Turbo-T, and GNX were all Buick Regals; higher trim levels. I think that comparison might be more like the Buick Regal T-Type with the 3.8 turbo V-6 vs the Chevrolet Monte Carlo SS with a 5.0 V-8.

I think the last year the Firebird got a Pontiac V-8 was 1981. After that it was mostly Chevrolet engines with a few Buick 3.8 turbos and the miserable Pontiac 2.5 “Iron Duke” inline 4.

It was the 301 Turbo which inexplicably came out as automatic-only and was outpaced by its rivals as well as the older 400.

After that, the Trans Am ended up with an SBC as all other GM V8-powered cars, which meant it became just a prettier version of the Camaro. :frowning:

Actually it was 92. the Firebird, and Camaro RS had the 305 option. the Firebird Forumla had a 350.
Once they made the 4th gens, the RS/Firebird was V6 and the TA/Z28 were the V8. The only exception was the Firebird Firehawk if i recall.

For an F-Body expert you’re not very good. The Rally Sport is an appearance package that was available for V6 and V8 cars. The Formula Firebirds are stripped down V8 cars that had things like ground effects and T-Tops as options, where as Trans-Am they are standard options. The Firehawk cars are “tuned” V8 Formulas (cloth seats, no T-Tops, no ground effects or big wing, roll up windows… light weight) and Trans-Am cars built by SLP. The 4th gen Ram Air F-Bodies where also built by SLP (SS, WS6) and the white knob Hurst shifter came standard on the 6 speed cars.
The 87 IROC-Z and Trans-Am where the first cars to receive the Chevrolet 350 Tuned Port Injection and only available with automatic transmission. The T-5 manual was only available on 305 TPI and TBI because it couldn’t handle the torque of the 350 TPI until it was beefed up a couple years later with brass syncros, shift forks, and input shaft. This was also when the B.O.P. bell housing went away, with the exception of the one year only Turbo Trans-Am 3.8 and its 500 units in 89.

All G-Body Turbo Regals had the same 3.8 power train save for the GNX in 89. T-Type Regals can be compared to Formula Firebirds as they are less optioned out Grand Nationals. T-Type Regals can be had with pillow top bench seats, column shifter, beige paint and vinyl tops (the ultimate sleeper car in the 80’s).

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Aye, but that 350 was a Chevrolet engine, as was he 305. Like NeoDrag-onaut said the 301 was the last Pontiac V-8 to go in the Firebird, which could be had with an interesting turbo setup.

ok so I did some test runs with the 02 Camaro (C 481) and the 02 Trans Am(C 425) 100% stock on the Top Gear track and I noticed something when I went to run the laps with the 02 Trans Am. The stock gears on the 02 Trans Am are longer then the 02 Camaro not by a lot but enough that I didn’t use 4th as much in the Trans Am and even used 1st gear where I didn’t need to in the Camaro.
but anyway here are the lap times:

Camaro 1:24.913
lap time
Trans Am 1:24.781
lap time

The times (for me at least) are really close but it was a lot harder to get the Trans Am to that 24.7 then it was to get the Camaro around there in 24.9.

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Hey, how did you have the 02 Camaro at C 401? In stock form it’s C 481. By the way, great job on the write up op. I’m with you, the more accurate they can be to the real world cars the better, I’d certainly think they have the resources for it.

Forza is a video game made for gamers. It may look nice and be loads of fun, but if you’re looking for any sort of realism other than aesthetics, you are looking in the wrong place, bud.

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Curb weight usually always includes a full tank of fuel. Quarter mile, braking distances, and 0 - 60 times are highly dependent on the track, the driver and weather conditions at the time of testing. A slight change in ambient temperature during testing will affect the results. Many factors likely play a role here. In earlier models of the two cars, Fire-Chickens were often the dogs of the bunch. Merely because all the extra fluff that Pontiac would add to their models. Either way like others have said, it’s just a game so play it and enjoy it for what it is.