Training for Newbs again

[JimB3]

I understand why TG Wormburner would request the posts be moved to the wish list thread but I have to respectfully disagree. I’d like to have a discussion about what should be in the tutorial before posting it to the wish list. Once I have received feedback from other users, I will gladly post it to the wish list referencing the thread that generated the wish. Shoving the thread off to the wish list and locking it guarantees it will be forgotten. Is this what Turn 10 wants? If so, that is bad.

I’ve been do some thinking about how to implement a tutorial to the game. My original post is a wish that I don’t think will happen (See Training for Newbs thread). I want something that Turn 10 will consider. I am open to suggestions. I encourage feedback. You won’t hurt my feelings. (Okay, maybe you will, but I’ll get over it.)

I’ll fire up Forza Motorsport (no number) on my Xbox (no number) again and check out the tutorial. I don’t remember it. Yes, it still works I started it a couple of weeks ago when I found it in boxes from when I moved last year. It’s surprising how similar it is to the current version. The courses and how the cars respond is surprising.

Let me begin with one statement. The tutorials are optional. You don’t have to do them if you don’t want to. No achievement should be awarded for completing them. A badge may be awarded but not an achievement.

I said I wanted graphs showing how the racer compared to the instructor. Instead, why not have a replay showing how the racer’s lap with the heads up display showing the racer’s speed, accelerator, braking, steering, and gear settings long with speed compared to the instructor’s settings? Since Turn 10 already can save the race, this shouldn’t be too difficult. Distance off the racing line would also be a nice feature.

Another feature I’d like to see in the tutorial is the assists. The first tutorial would have all the assists on. This tutorial would only cover racing line. Once this tutorial was completed the racer could advance to the next tutorial where auto-braking is turned off. This would teach the user how to use the brakes. Which assists should be turned off is a subject for debate. I think I’d go to a manual transmission next but I’m willing to listen to other ideas.

Another tutorial I’d like to see is for tuning. The user would have to run a lap with default settings. Next the user would run a lap with extreme settings one way, followed by another lap with the settings in the other extreme settings. The user would then be instructed to tune the settings. A target lap time would be given. Once the user beat this time, he would be considered to have passed the test for the particular tuning component. A tutorial for each tuning component could be set up. No order should be required. A suggested order would be nice. The car and track should be selected such that the effects of the tuning are obvious to the user. I have been torturing myself trying to figure out the effects of all the tuning. Once the user completed all the tuning tutorials, I could see a badge being awarded.

Like I said, I appreciate any feedback but remember let’s try to keep this reasonable so that Turn 10 will consider adding it to Forza 6.

Turn 10, please don’t move this to the wish list. I’d like to get other people’s feedback before I post it there.

[PPiDrive]

You do know this will get locked again and it may put your posts under moderation for a time being…

A) Trouble makers don’t care about this and will continue to play the way they do regardless of whether or not it is in the game

B) A lot of what was described in the last thread is a matter of practice and learning how to modulate inputs with care, not just on/off

C) There is “an instructor” in the game that tell you when to turn, when to brake, and where the racing line is and it’s called the SUGGESTED LINE.

D) The settings you speak of are available as a HUD option (for throttle and brake input, and steering wheel) and the rest can be found in the telemetry data.

E) Distance from the racing line is easily seen visually by actually turning the racing line on and using CHASE FAR view and you can visually see yourself not following the line. For players who want to learn the proper line, they must first race with it on.

I think that that responds to many of your points. Unfortunately, the rest belong in the wishlist thread and should be posted there so development sees them. A discussion can be had in that thread as well as in any other thread, and it was established with the purpose of reducing clutter. In this setting, this thread will most likely get locked.

[Eris_D_Kallisti]

Maybe having the first parts of the tutorials be with the other cars not present or collisions turned off. I know that I personally work very hard to get clean laps in the rivals events where there aren’t drivatars that can hit me, but there is no point in the career races as your lap will be dirtied by someone else hitting you no matter how careful you are unless you are right behind the last person. If people had a tutorial that helped them with getting the idea of a clean lap before they started the career races, or even if the first couple they were thrown into were set up in a way to encourage clean laps it might make them and by extension their drivatars less crashy.

[JimB3]

@Eris_D_Kallisti

Maybe having the first parts of the tutorials be with the other cars not present or collisions turned off. I know that I personally work very hard to get clean laps in the rivals events where there aren’t drivatars that can hit me, but there is no point in the career races as your lap will be dirtied by someone else hitting you no matter how careful you are unless you are right behind the last person. If people had a tutorial that helped them with getting the idea of a clean lap before they started the career races, or even if the first couple they were thrown into were set up in a way to encourage clean laps it might make them and by extension their drivatars less crashy.

I love that idea of a passing tutorial and driving in a pack of drivers, but how would you set these up? I need to think about this. This is the type of feedback I’m looking for. I was just looking at how to run fast laps forgetting about other drivers but what you have mentioned is very important. Thanks for the feedback.

[JimB3]

Well, maybe my post will be put under moderation for a while. I can live with that. I’m just trying to improve the game and come up with a suggestion that has a reasonable chance of being considered. Developing an idea should not be on the wish list. A well thought out idea would be a much better item to put on the wish list. How many improvements to an idea have you seen posted on the wish list?

A) Trouble makers can do whatever they wish. I’m not saying to make the tutorial mandatory. If you already played Forza 5, you don’t need to do it. The only thing I’m suggesting is to have a badge for completing the tutorials.

B) I am not exactly sure what you mean here. I understand that you need to learn to moderate the controls. I just want a demonstration on how to do it.

C) I understand the “Suggested Line” is an instructor but it is a rather bad one. Try following the one on the Indy oval. I can turn much faster laps not following it. Other courses it tells you to brake way to early.

D) I understand the settings I described are on the HUD. That is where I got the idea from. I’d just like to see them compared to a “good” racer’s settings. I think one could learn from this.

E) I said distance from the suggested line being added to the HUD would be a nice addition. You could see this from the cockpit with out having to change to the external view.

I really think there needs to be a tutorial for tuning. I’ve read tuning guides but it doesn’t compare to actual tuning.

Every idea starts with pie-in-the-sky dreams. The objective is come up with a down-to-earth plan. Like I said, I am trying to develop a well thought idea that can be reasonably implemented and put in the game.

[PPiDrive]

@JimB3

Well, maybe my post will be put under moderation for a while. I can live with that. I’m just trying to improve the game and come up with a suggestion that has a reasonable chance of being considered. Developing an idea should not be on the wish list. A well thought out idea would be a much better item to put on the wish list. How many improvements to an idea have you seen posted on the wish list?

A) Trouble makers can do whatever they wish. I’m not saying to make the tutorial mandatory. If you already played Forza 5, you don’t need to do it. The only thing I’m suggesting is to have a badge for completing the tutorials.

B) I am not exactly sure what you mean here. I understand that you need to learn to moderate the controls. I just want a demonstration on how to do it.

C) I understand the “Suggested Line” is an instructor but it is a rather bad one. Try following the one on the Indy oval. I can turn much faster laps not following it. Other courses it tells you to brake way to early.

D) I understand the settings I described are on the HUD. That is where I got the idea from. I’d just like to see them compared to a “good” racer’s settings. I think one could learn from this.

E) I said distance from the suggested line being added to the HUD would be a nice addition. You could see this from the cockpit with out having to change to the external view.

I really think there needs to be a tutorial for tuning. I’ve read tuning guides but it doesn’t compare to actual tuning.

Every idea starts with pie-in-the-sky dreams. The objective is come up with a down-to-earth plan. Like I said, I am trying to develop a well thought idea that can be reasonably implemented and put in the game.

First of all, I think you have a good point and you had some ideas I agree with. I’m not trying to detract from your idea and/or your belief. Just know, this isn’t your forum, it’s not my forum, it’s someone else’s and they have it set up a certain way. They already asked you to do things their way once, that’s where I was trying to get.

B) Sorry, this was kind of hard for me to put into writing. I think what you meant to say is that the tutorial teaches people when to accelerate and when to brake and I was getting more at how to accelerate and how to brake. Most things we do during the day don’t require very little or finesse movements of our fingers to the extent that is required to drive well in Forza. The best way to learn that and to get better is simply to practice and there is no amount of tutorial that will explain that or help with that, you just have to do it.

C) I agree that the suggested line isn’t the BEST line, take a look at the top Spa leaderboards. The BEST clean lap time goes well off the track at times. What the suggested line is however, is a good suggestion. It is my understanding that such tutorials would be primarily for new players or drivers who are not as skilled and for that kind of racer the line is adequate. Everyone must start somewhere and it doesn’t matter if the line brakes too early, rather too early than too late or not at all, especially when it comes to teaching someone how to race cleanly.

D) I don’t know where this "good racer: you speak of comes from? Is it a good driver from the development studio, is it a top leaderboard person? I don’t think this will happen for a few reasons, but the most revealing one is that in previous titles you could watch a person’s telemetry during their replay and in Forza Motorsport 5 that feature has been removed. What you are describing was in the game and it has been removed. I don’t know the reasoning behind the removal, but it was clearly taken out so I doubt we’ll see it back soon. Second, what is a good driver? Who is a good driver? Is a good driver the one with the fastest lap? Maybe, but maybe I am not that good and that driver is, for now, too fr out of my reach. Maybe the two “best drivers” each have a very different tune style and yet both achieve fast times. There are many ways to go fast and to define “good” and it’s not the same for everyone.

E) You can see the suggested line from any view, but if you wish to see how far off you are, chase views are the best. I don’t know how a numerical representation would be useful to a driver, especially at a lower level. Obviously the higher the number the further away you are from the line but so what; that doesn’t tell you how to fix it. Do you think a beginning driver can look at the telemetry, see a number telling them how far they are from the suggested or best line, and use the other data to correct it? Not all good drivers in the game use the telemetry or know what it means. If you wanted to start teaching beginners about it and getting them using it a lot you’d need to first teach them what all the data means and how to use it and that is a long study that manufacturers are still trying to figure out to improve their cars, I don’t expect beginning video game players to learn it all within a few lesson races.

I honestly feel that this wouldn’t be helpful. Some players will try to race clean and you know who they are when they hit you on accident. Those people also strive to better themselves and improve their abilities, they try to race with other clean racers and they can always come here or join a car club that can help them. The best way to learn is to do it. Then there are those who don’t care and this would be a wasted investment on them. I think if you want more people to understand this and to race clean, help them out on these forums, interact with them, play with them, show them in the game what it means and how to do it. That is how they learn and how you get a better community. The best lessons learned are the ones figured out for yourself and experienced, not the ones told to you by someone else.

[JimB3]

Turn 10, I understand your desire to keep the boards clean. I can understand locking some threads. I can understand locking this thread but I’d like it if you would let it continue for a couple of weeks so I can get other players feedback and come up with a reasonable suggestion. I’d also like you feedback. If something that is suggested here is not feasible, I’d like to know that quickly so that we can come up with a something that can be implemented. This is a two-way street. We tell you what we want. You tell us what is possible.

[B_Wald_Big_Mek]

What COULD help with troublemakers would be to put a test at the end of your tutorial. Then, you could have lobbies for “unproven” drivers. Racers who DO pass can access the real lobbies.

[crunchy1X]

@B_Wald_Big_Mek

What COULD help with troublemakers would be to put a test at the end of your tutorial. Then, you could have lobbies for “unproven” drivers. Racers who DO pass can access the real lobbies.

Troublemakers != bad drivers.

Most troublemakers would have no problem passing the test and then going on to cause grief in the public lobbies.

[B_Wald_Big_Mek]

@crunchy1X

@B_Wald_Big_Mek

What COULD help with troublemakers would be to put a test at the end of your tutorial. Then, you could have lobbies for “unproven” drivers. Racers who DO pass can access the real lobbies.

Troublemakers != bad drivers.

Most troublemakers would have no problem passing the test and then going on to cause grief in the public lobbies.

I don’t get your response, no offence.

In a weird way, you prove my point: Most troublemakers are poor drivers, and would FAIL the test (I don’t follow your logic, stating they would pass). Sure, there’d be the occasional driver who has skillz AND the intent to cause havoc online, but they would quickly be culled off by the existing report/block system.

[Ruddy88]

I will say one thing, As far as teaching people about clean driving, I think it should first be explained exactly what a clean lap is. I was forever getting #25000 places on tracks during career even when I raced a perfect line, had no idea that the exclamation point indicated a dirty lap, I thought it just meant it was my best lap or something. So even though I raced a clean line, got a good time and didnt hit or be hit by anyone or come off the track I was still only capable of a #25000 placing on the leaderboards? to be honest I thought, yep, bugger rivals, I dont stand a change at getting even remotely close to that.

And then I found a little gem of info that changed my thoughts about it completely.

Drafting dirties a lap. Both you drafting someone and someone else drafting you, also if you dirty a lap in the last section then you start your next lap as dirty. I didnt know this. so every time a drivatar pulled on to the straight a few seconds behind me and drafted me id dirty my lap, then start my new lap already dirty, since most races in the first 3\4 of the career are 2-3 laps and theres no race for pole, Im usually just getting into first at the end of lap 2 and finishing lap 3 dirty because of a AI player drafting me on te straight.
This doesnt matter obviously in rivals but if i had have known i was capale of the sort of leaderoard placings ive been getting lately (top 500, nothing flash but better than the 25000+ i was on) then i would have had much more interest in rivals earlier on,
I think there needs to be a bit of defintion in game about hwat constitutes a clean lap.

I do like the idea of an optional tutorial though about some more advanced driving techniques. As far as tuning tutorials go, I think maybe a basic one, I think its more important to start off with default tuning more adjusted to what is reasonable, there are so many cars that are near on undrivable even without adding upgrades. Perhaps with major upgrades, such as engine upgrades or aspiration/drivetype conversions, there could be some pointers on what areas to look at? for instance, say you have an AWD and you convert to a RWD, in the desciprtion it could have a suggested tunin area of focus saying what changes could benefit that conversion (soften rear springs, add rear downforce, cam adjystements, whatever) Im sure there are many times where generic adjustments are needed no matter what even if the fine tuning differs dramatically at least new tuners will have somewhere to start? Just an idea…

[Flaw3d_Genius]

@Ruddy88

I will say one thing, As far as teaching people about clean driving, I think it should first be explained exactly what a clean lap is. I was forever getting #25000 places on tracks during career even when I raced a perfect line, had no idea that the exclamation point indicated a dirty lap, I thought it just meant it was my best lap or something. So even though I raced a clean line, got a good time and didnt hit or be hit by anyone or come off the track I was still only capable of a #25000 placing on the leaderboards? to be honest I thought, yep, bugger rivals, I dont stand a change at getting even remotely close to that.

And then I found a little gem of info that changed my thoughts about it completely.

Drafting dirties a lap. Both you drafting someone and someone else drafting you, also if you dirty a lap in the last section then you start your next lap as dirty. I didnt know this. so every time a drivatar pulled on to the straight a few seconds behind me and drafted me id dirty my lap, then start my new lap already dirty, since most races in the first 3\4 of the career are 2-3 laps and theres no race for pole, Im usually just getting into first at the end of lap 2 and finishing lap 3 dirty because of a AI player drafting me on te straight.
This doesnt matter obviously in rivals but if i had have known i was capale of the sort of leaderoard placings ive been getting lately (top 500, nothing flash but better than the 25000+ i was on) then i would have had much more interest in rivals earlier on,
I think there needs to be a bit of defintion in game about hwat constitutes a clean lap.

I do like the idea of an optional tutorial though about some more advanced driving techniques. As far as tuning tutorials go, I think maybe a basic one, I think its more important to start off with default tuning more adjusted to what is reasonable, there are so many cars that are near on undrivable even without adding upgrades. Perhaps with major upgrades, such as engine upgrades or aspiration/drivetype conversions, there could be some pointers on what areas to look at? for instance, say you have an AWD and you convert to a RWD, in the desciprtion it could have a suggested tunin area of focus saying what changes could benefit that conversion (soften rear springs, add rear downforce, cam adjystements, whatever) Im sure there are many times where generic adjustments are needed no matter what even if the fine tuning differs dramatically at least new tuners will have somewhere to start? Just an idea…

Never ever draft in Forza.

As for chase cam…i say get rid of it imo it has no place being in a simulation game. unless it’s a helicopter simulation game following a race car.

[Rynico]

@Flaw3d_Genius

@Ruddy88

I will say one thing, As far as teaching people about clean driving, I think it should first be explained exactly what a clean lap is. I was forever getting #25000 places on tracks during career even when I raced a perfect line, had no idea that the exclamation point indicated a dirty lap, I thought it just meant it was my best lap or something. So even though I raced a clean line, got a good time and didnt hit or be hit by anyone or come off the track I was still only capable of a #25000 placing on the leaderboards? to be honest I thought, yep, bugger rivals, I dont stand a change at getting even remotely close to that.

And then I found a little gem of info that changed my thoughts about it completely.

Drafting dirties a lap. Both you drafting someone and someone else drafting you, also if you dirty a lap in the last section then you start your next lap as dirty. I didnt know this. so every time a drivatar pulled on to the straight a few seconds behind me and drafted me id dirty my lap, then start my new lap already dirty, since most races in the first 3\4 of the career are 2-3 laps and theres no race for pole, Im usually just getting into first at the end of lap 2 and finishing lap 3 dirty because of a AI player drafting me on te straight.
This doesnt matter obviously in rivals but if i had have known i was capale of the sort of leaderoard placings ive been getting lately (top 500, nothing flash but better than the 25000+ i was on) then i would have had much more interest in rivals earlier on,
I think there needs to be a bit of defintion in game about hwat constitutes a clean lap.

I do like the idea of an optional tutorial though about some more advanced driving techniques. As far as tuning tutorials go, I think maybe a basic one, I think its more important to start off with default tuning more adjusted to what is reasonable, there are so many cars that are near on undrivable even without adding upgrades. Perhaps with major upgrades, such as engine upgrades or aspiration/drivetype conversions, there could be some pointers on what areas to look at? for instance, say you have an AWD and you convert to a RWD, in the desciprtion it could have a suggested tunin area of focus saying what changes could benefit that conversion (soften rear springs, add rear downforce, cam adjystements, whatever) Im sure there are many times where generic adjustments are needed no matter what even if the fine tuning differs dramatically at least new tuners will have somewhere to start? Just an idea…

Never ever draft in Forza.

As for chase cam…i say get rid of it imo it has no place being in a simulation game. unless it’s a helicopter simulation game following a race car.

Never ever draft in Forza? Why not?

[SatNiteEduardo]

@Flaw3d_Genius

As for chase cam…i say get rid of it imo it has no place being in a simulation game. unless it’s a helicopter simulation game following a race car.

Do you think chase cam gives an advantage to those who use it?

If not why remove it?

I use it for many reasons. The main one is I almost always use default controls and cameras in all games. Chase cam was default in the early racing games i played so i got used to it.

I like seeing the car ie the beauty of the car.

I can see other cars easier which a lot of players need to do - so many people are not aware of other cars around them.

For me it gives feedback i can use to adjust - i can see what the car is doing. If i am not in a real cockpit i am not playing a real simulator andnot getting real feedback.

[B_Wald_Big_Mek]

@SatNiteEduardo

@Flaw3d_Genius

As for chase cam…i say get rid of it imo it has no place being in a simulation game. unless it’s a helicopter simulation game following a race car.

Do you think chase cam gives an advantage to those who use it?

If not why remove it?

I use it for many reasons. The main one is I almost always use default controls and cameras in all games. Chase cam was default in the early racing games i played so i got used to it.

I like seeing the car ie the beauty of the car.

I can see other cars easier which a lot of players need to do - so many people are not aware of other cars around them.

For me it gives feedback i can use to adjust - i can see what the car is doing. If i am not in a real cockpit i am not playing a real simulator andnot getting real feedback.

+3

I can’t feel the g forces at work on the car, so I have to see them. Not to mention MOST* cars sound better from outside, too.

• looking at YOU, RR Wraith. Speak up.

[EMW_Reaper_67]

@SatNiteEduardo

@Flaw3d_Genius

As for chase cam…i say get rid of it imo it has no place being in a simulation game. unless it’s a helicopter simulation game following a race car.

Do you think chase cam gives an advantage to those who use it?

If not why remove it?

I use it for many reasons. The main one is I almost always use default controls and cameras in all games. Chase cam was default in the early racing games i played so i got used to it.

I like seeing the car ie the beauty of the car.

I can see other cars easier which a lot of players need to do - so many people are not aware of other cars around them.

For me it gives feedback i can use to adjust - i can see what the car is doing. If i am not in a real cockpit i am not playing a real simulator andnot getting real feedback.

+1

[EMW_Simmo]

@Texas Racing

@SatNiteEduardo

@Flaw3d_Genius

As for chase cam…i say get rid of it imo it has no place being in a simulation game. unless it’s a helicopter simulation game following a race car.

Do you think chase cam gives an advantage to those who use it?

If not why remove it?

I use it for many reasons. The main one is I almost always use default controls and cameras in all games. Chase cam was default in the early racing games i played so i got used to it.

I like seeing the car ie the beauty of the car.

I can see other cars easier which a lot of players need to do - so many people are not aware of other cars around them.

For me it gives feedback i can use to adjust - i can see what the car is doing. If i am not in a real cockpit i am not playing a real simulator andnot getting real feedback.

+1

+5 this guy has lost the plot, they should have closed this thread…Driving is simple you follow the circuit around as fast and as clean as you possibly can within the track limits provided…
Its not somekind of secret strategy game …if you need help on a certain subject then its not hard you just do what people have been doing for thousands of years and ask…

[crunchy1X]

@B Wald: I’m a programmer. “!=” is a way of writing “not equals” in several different programming languages (i.e. Troublemakers do not equal bad drivers).

What I’m saying is that I think your wrong assume that troublemakers are bad drivers. By extension, I think you’re also wrong to assume that troublemakers would have a hard time passing a test. In my experience troublemakers are typically better drivers than at least 50% of the field. They cause trouble because “causing trouble” is fun to them - not because they are incapable of being competitive.

If you put together a test that weeds out troublemakers by making it so tough that only the best drivers can pass - then you’re going to eliminate well over 50% of the player base from competing. I don’t think that Turn10 wants to deal with the PR nightmare that would come from selling a game that over 50% of the players can’t play online because they can’t pass the test.

[Kranktus]

Crunchy is correct. No amount of training or tests will make any difference. All they have to do is drive perfectly to pass the test and then they can do what they want. Report and block DOES work, and it’s false to say it doesn’t. I’m surprised this thread is still going as we went through this whole conversation in the “online idiots” post a few weeks ago.

[JimB3]

Thanks everyone for you input. Also thanks to Turn 10 for letting this thread continue.

I think some of the comments may be getting a little off track. I’m not suggesting anything be done about trouble makers. As has been mentioned they will ignore the tutorials. That is fine. Experienced drivers should skip the tutorial. The tutorial should be there to help new drivers learn how to drive in the game and some less experienced racers improve their driving. Nothing more.

There is one good question asked. What is a good driver. For this discussion I consider a good driver one that follows the racing the line accelerators and decelerates at the appropriate times and has a lap time near the top 25%. All of this is done with no other drivers on the course. Let’s call this person the teaching Stig.

Here are my current thoughts. Have a series of short events on short courses with the same car. Before the race, the user can watch a video of the teaching Stig. A commentary should run while the video is playing mentioning things the driver should pay attention to. The driver can choose to skip the video if they wish. The driver would then have to replicate what the teaching Stig did. There should be a teaching Stig ghost and the display should show what the teaching Stig was doing when he was at the same point of the track as the driver. For instance, there should be two needles on the speedometer showing the racer’s speed and the teaching Stig’s speed. Similar things for the accelerator and brake would exist. The steering would have a shadowing showing the position of the teaching Stig’s steering wheel. The races could be run with various assists on or off. The teaching Stig’s time should be adjusted for this.

I have more to add but I think I’ve put enough in this post for people to think about. Any comments are welcome.