Toe has been described several times as having the ability to mask problems. So…
-What types of problems does toe mask?
-What settings should be looked at first to resolve said problems?
-At what point during tuning is it best to start playing with the toe?
-What benefits can be had by adjusting toe?
-Are experienced tuners running any extreme figures? (or just ± .3 still)
Toe is one of the last thing I look into.
If you’re not carefull, it can screw your setup real fast.
But I never tried to run “extreme figure” I may try that tonight
The first thing that come in mind, is too much positive toe at the rear.
It will cause instability at low, medium and high speed.
Usualy when the car is all over the place, I go for some Negative Toe.
When I see car at -0.5 (Some high powered car come to mind) and I don’t have any problem with it, I tend to put it around -0.2.
Thanks Drows24. Im curious what others may have to say as well. But I think what you said about near last, or if the car is way out of hand will be the consensus. Im hoping to take more away from this thread. I started learning all wrong. I read while tuning that it says it helps turn in by adjusting the front. So if my car was a boat in the turns I would start there. Now I start with damping. Still learning how to apply all that though.
Any more thought/advise on the where and whens of Toe? Any “typical” figures for a front engine rear wheel?
FWD and AWD you can add some positive toe and it aids in turn in. Maybe +0.2 front and +0.1 rear. The trade off is that sometimes when you exit a corner the car will push wide and veer of the track. Particularly in lower speed corners.
RWD some will put +0.1 front and -0.1 rear it makes the car act like an awd. Trade off it will be that it will be very unpredictable and inconsistent through corners.
Toe like cams is rarely needed if you have a good build and a solid base tune. If a car is over/under steering look at Worm’s guide under the tuning troubleshooter section as to where to start to fix any problems.
Not enough rear toe-in (under hard acceleration) –presumably for RWD.
Too much front toe (either in or out) – car darts over bumps.
Front ARB is way too stiff – car darts over bumps.
Instability Under Brakes
Front end darts or wanders – too much front brake bias.
Car wants to spin – too much rear brake bias.
Response
Car feels heavy and unresponsive.
o Too much downforce.
Car feels sloppy and is slow to take a set in corners.
o Too little shock.
o Too much body roll (not enough spring and/or ARB).
Car responds too quickly, is twitchy, and slides easily.
o Too little downforce.
o Too much shock, too much spring, and/or too much ARB.
o Too much tire pressure.
Understeer
Corner entry understeer – car won’t turn in at all.
o Front
tires not wide enough.
o Too much front roll stiffness – ARBs and/or springs.
o Not enough front bump – shocks.
o Not enough front downforce.
o Too much dynamic camber on front wheels (not enough static negative camber).
Corner entry understeer – car turns in initially then starts to push.
o Too much front toe-in.
o Rebound too stiff – shocks (not enough droop travel).
o Not enough front downforce.
o Bump not stiff enough – shocks.
Corner entry understeer – car turns in and then darts.
o Insufficient front suspension travel in either or both directions – shocks.
Oversteer
Corner exit oversteer – gets progressively worse from the time throttle is applied.
o Too much rear roll stiffness.
o Too much rear camber.
o Too little rear downforce.
o Too little rear toe-in.
o Not enough rear spring, shock, or ARB – allows car to roll over on outside rear wheel.
Corner exit oversteer (sudden) - car takes its set then breaks loose.
o Not enough rear suspension travel (too much shock in either bump, rebound, or both).
CAUSES – EFFECT ON VEHICLE
Springs
Too much spring – overall
o Harsh and choppy ride, lack of tire compliance.
o Can’t put power down on corner exit - excessive wheelspin.
o Car slides too much.
Too much spring – front
o Initial understeer.
o Front end breaks loose in corners.
o Front end breaks loose over bumps.
Too much spring – rear
o Oversteer when power is applied on corner exit.
o Excessive wheelspin.
Too little spring – overall
o Car bottoms out.
o Car feels like it’s floating.
o Sloppy response.
o Car is slow to take its set.
Too little spring – front
o Front end hits ground under brakes.
o Too much body roll on corner entry.
o Initial understeer – car won’t point in.
Too little spring – rear
o Too much squat under acceleration, and the resultant increase in negative camber.
o Car falls over on outside rear wheel causing power-on oversteer.
Anti-Roll Bars
Too much ARB – overall
o Very sudden turning response and little feel.
o Car slides or skates instead of taking its set.
o May dart over one wheel bumps or diagonal bumps.
Too much ARB – front
o Corner entry understeer that gets progressively worse.
o Steady state understeer in the middle of sweeping turns.
Too much ARB – rear
o Corner exit oversteer when throttle is applied.
o Excessive sliding coming out of corners.
Too little ARB – overall
o Car is sloppy and lacks response.
o Car is slow to transition, especially in chicanes and esses.
o Car rolls too much resulting in too much dynamic, positive camber and the resultant loss of cornering power due to decrease in tire traction.
Too little ARB – front
o Car rolls over onto outside tire on corner entry then ‘washes out’ (understeers).
o Car lacks steering response and is slow to change direction.
Too little ARB – rear
o Back end doesn’t want to rotate on corner exit under power (difficult to throttle steer).
Shock Absorbers
Too much shock – overall
o Very sudden car with harsh ride, sliding, and wheel patter.
o Car crashes over road surface irregularities.
Too much rebound adjustment
o Wheels do not return to road surface quickly after displacement.
o Inside wheel pulls off the road surface in a corner.
o Lack of tire compliance over bumps and surface undulations.
o Car may be jacked down in long corners.
Too much bump adjustment
o Initial reaction to bumps and curbs is harsh.
o Initial chassis roll slow to develop.
o Car slides rather than sticks.
o Driven wheels hop when the power is put down.
Too little shock – overall
o Car floats a lot in ride and oscillates after bumps (underdamped).
o Slow and sloppy response.
o Chassis rolls too quickly.
Too little rebound adjustment
o Oscillates after bumps.
o Doesn’t put the power down well.
Too little bump adjustment
o Initial bump reaction soft.
o Car dives and squats a lot under brakes and under power.
o Car rolls quickly and falls over outside tires – front tire on corner entry and rear tire on exit.
Wheel Alignment
Front toe-in – too much
o Car darts over bumps, under the brakes, and during corner entry.
o Car won’t point into corners.
Front toe-out – too much
o Car wanders under the brakes.
o Straight line instability especially over one wheel and diagonal bumps.
o Car may point into corners then refuse to take a set
o Understeer as a result of tire scrub in long corners.
Rear toe-in – too much
o Rear feels light and unstable on corner entry.
o Car slides a bit in corners rather than rolling freely.
Rear toe-in – too little
o Power on oversteer during corner exit.
Rear toe-out – any
o Power oversteer during corner exit.
o Straight line instability.
Front wheel caster – too much
o Excessive physical steering effort (probably non-applicable with the XBOX controller)
Front wheel caster – too little
o Too little steering feel and feedback (also probably non-applicable with the XBOX controller)
Camber – too much negative
o Inside of tire will be hotter than the rest and wear faster.
o Front tires – reduced braking capacity (dive)
o Rear tires – reduced acceleration capacity (squat)
Camber – too much positive
o Outside of tire will be hotter than the rest and wear faster.
o Rear tires – corner exit oversteer and reduced tire traction.
o Rear tires - If extreme may cause corner entrance instability.
o Front tires – too much body roll and understeer after car turns in.
Tires
Too much tire pressure
o Harsh ride.
o Excessive wheel patter, sliding and wheelspin.
o High temperature at center of tire.
Too little tire pressure
o Soft and mushy response.
o High tire temperatures at inner and outer edges.
o Reduced contact patch
Thanks Loco. Lots of good info in worms thread. Just wondering, on a Front engine RWD, if thats the last thing to go to? See on the list of causes and effects it is the first thing even mentioned. Or if you start testing a car out and its unstable in a straight line go right to the toe?
If the car is exhibiting the effects mentioned, look there for a change first. The guide is pretty good for helping rule out what is causing the problem.
Thanks. I think I have had most of my question answered. I do use toe to settle down a wild car but just trying to make sure Im not “masking” a problem that should be handled elsewhere.
It probably should be addressed elsewhere first. I don’t know the problem so it’s hard to say. There are exceptions to every rule, if it works for you and it’s fast. It might not be an issue. Just look for the trade off. If it’s better in 3 corners but worse in 1 it could be an improvement.
I know what you mean. Im trying to figure out what problems toe can mask myself. I have read several times here that it will mask a problem but never what problem.
If a car was under steering, using positive toe increases turn in. So instead of adjusting roll bars and/or springs, you just slap some positive toe on it.
If over steering you just slap some negative toe.
Instead of working out through other avenues first, you fast track or short cut.
It has quite a large effect on the handling of a car so it might seem to fix any problem that should be addressed at source e.g. springs.Camber and castor less so in alignment.
ECT Loco UBoG,
The cause and effect post is the most concise and informative thing I’ve ever read about tuning. It is clearly the product of a logical mind, unlike my own. Armed with this knowledge, I’m a dangerous man. There is not a single tuner in Forza that wouldn’t be helped with this reference material at hand. Thank you very much.