Over 400 cars in FM remain to be revealed - analysis and predictions [Update 2023/5/25: +2 cars]

Draugnimir · January 30, 2023, 12:44pm

[UPDATE: I’ve added the second part of analysis to the thread: the list of ca. 750 cars from FM7 and FM6 with predictions about their chances to return in the new Forza Motorsport]

We already know that Forza Motorsport launches with over 500 cars and over 100 of them are not models returning from FM7 or older games in the series (but they can come from Forza Horizon).

Based on 104 cars already confirmed for the new Forza Motorsport (including 32 new-to-Motorsport models), we have some basis to speculate a bit on what cars from FM7, FH5 and FH4 are likely to be featured as well.

Let’s assume that Turn 10 figures out the licensing deal with Stellantis until Forza Motorsport launches and Abarth, Alfa Romeo, Fiat and Lancia will be present in the game (there is always hope!).

I’ve excluded cars already confirmed to be available in Forza Motorsport (71 returning from FM7, 1 returning from FM6, 16 borrowed from FH4/FH5 and 16 #NewToForza)

Already confirmed FH4/FH5 cars

2018 Apollo Intensa Emozione
2021 Audi RS e-tron GT
2018 Audi TT RS
2019 Brabham BT62
2018 Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 1LE
2020 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray Coupe
2018 Dodge Challenger SRT Demon
2018 Formula Drift #64 Nissan 370Z
2020 Formula Drift #151 Toyota GR Supra
2020 Koenigsegg Jesko
2020 Lamborghini Huracan Evo
2016 NIO EP9
2019 Nissan 370Z Nismo
2020 Nissan GT-R Nismo (R35)
1970 Porsche #3 917 LH
2021 Porsche 911 GT3

Highly probable new-to-Motorsport cars from FH4/FH5:

2017 Alpine A110
2019 Aston Martin DBS Superleggera
2019 Aston Martin Valhalla Concept Car
2018 Aston Martin Vantage
2017 Aston Martin Vulcan AMR Pro
2018 Audi RS 4 Avant
2018 Audi RS 5 Coupe
2021 Audi RS 6 Avant
2021 Audi RS 7 Sportback
2010 BMW M3 GTS
2021 BMW M4 Competition Coupe
2018 BMW M5
2020 BMW M8 Competition Coupe
2019 BMW Z4 Roadster
2019 Bugatti Divo
1970 Ferrari 512 S (because 1970 Porsche 917 LH, also introduced in FH4, is already confirmed for FM)
2017 Ferrari #25 Corse Clienti 488 Challenge
2019 Ferrari 488 Pista
2018 Ferrari FXX-K Evo
2020 Ferrari F8 Tributo
2020 Ferrari SF90 Stradale
1964 Ford GT40 Mk I
2018 Ford Mustang GT
2020 Ford Mustang Shelby GT500
2021 Ford Mustang Mach-E 1400
2020 Formula Drift #91 BMW M2
2017 Formula Drift #357 Chevrolet Corvette Z06
2021 Hennessey Venom F5
1953 Jaguar C-Type
1966 Jaguar XJ13 (other Le Mans racers from similar era, 1967 Ferrari 330 P4 and 1966 Ford GT40 Mk II, are already confirmed for FM)
2017 Koenigsegg Agera RS
2018 Lamborghini Aventador SVJ
2018 Lamborghini Huracan Performante
2020 Lamborghini Huracan Evo
2020 Lamborghini Huracan STO
2019 Lamborghini Urus
2020 Lamborghini Sian Roadster
2021 Lexus LC 500
2020 Lexus RC F Track Edition
2020 Lotus Evija
2020 Lynk & Co #62 Cyan Racing 03
2008 Maserati MC12 Versione Corsa
2018 McLaren 600LT Coupe
2019 McLaren Speedtail
2021 McLaren 620R
2021 McLaren 765LT Coupe
2018 Mercedes-AMG E 63 S
2018 Mercedes-AMG GT 4-Door Coupe
2021 Mercedes-AMG ONE
2021 Mini John Cooper Works GP
2020 MG #20 MG6 XPower
2023 Nissan Z
2018 Porsche 718 Cayman GTS
2020 Porsche Taycan Turbo S
2018 Renault Megane R.S.
2021 Rimac Nevera
2019 Subaru STI S209
2020 Toyota GR Supra
2018 TVR Griffith
2019 Zenvo TSR-S

That’s 60 cars in total. If all those predictions are correct, it would leave Turn 10 with only ca. 10-15 slots for #NewToForza cars to be revealed until the game launches.

Not-so-highly probable new-to-Motorsport cars from FH4/FH5:

2018 Alfa Romeo Stelvio Quadrifoglio
1969 Aston Martin DBS
2017 Aston Martin Vanquish Zagato Coupe
2021 Aston Martin DBX
2018 ATS GT
2020 Audi RS 3 Sedan
1931 Bentley 4-1/2 Liter Supercharged
2022 Cadillac CT4-V Blackwing
2022 Cadillac CT5-V Blackwing
2021 Cupra Formentor VZ5 [NEW]
2022 Cupra Tavascan Concept [NEW]
2022 Cupra UrbanRebel Racing Concept
2018 Deberti Chevrolet Silverado 1500 Drift Truck
2019 Deberti Toyota Tacoma TRD “The Performance Truck”
2008 Dodge Magnum SRT8
2017 Ferrari J50
2018 Ferrari Portofino
2019 Ferrari Monza SP2
1977 Ford #5 RS1800 MK II
1986 Ford Escort RS Turbo
1970 Ford GT70
1968 Ford Mustang Fastback 2+2
1986 Ford Mustang SVO
1999 Ford Racing Puma
1994 Ford Supervan 3
2013 Formula Drift #777 Chevrolet Corvette
2007 Formula Drift #117 599 GTB Fiorano
2009 Formula Drift #99 Mazda RX-8
2019 Formula Drift #411 Toyota Corolla Hatchback
1995 Formula Drift #34 Toyota Supra MkIV
1975 Forsberg Racing Nissan ‘Gold Legend’ Datsun 280Z
2010 Forsberg Racing Toyota Gumout 2JZ Camry Stock Car
1974 Honda Civic RS
2018 Italdesign Zerouno
1964 Jaguar Lightweight E-Type
1991 Jaguar Sport XJR-15
1993 Jaguar XJ220S TWR
2010 Jaguar C-X75
2018 Jaguar I-Pace
1973 Lamborghini Espada 400 GT
1977 Lamborghini Jarama S
2018 Land Rover Range Rover Velar First Edition
1977 Lotus Esprit S1
2021 Lynk & Co 03+
1992 Mazda 323 GT-R
2020 McLaren GT
1987 Mercedes-Benz AMG Hammer Coupe
1929 Mercedes-Benz Super Sport Kurz Barker Roadster
1970 Mercury Cyclone Spoiler
1938 MG TA Midget
2005 MG XPower SV-R
2021 MG MG6 XPower
2006 Mosler MT900 GT3
2018 Morgan Aero GT
1933 Napier Napier-Railton
1990 Nissan Pulsar GTI-R
2018 Nissan Sentra Nismo
2006 Noble M400
1966 Oldsmobile Toronado
1991 Peugeot 205 Rallye
1951 Porsche #46 356 SL Gmünd Coupe
1959 Porsche 356 A 1600 Super
1960 Porsche 356 RSR from Emory Motorsport
1964 Porsche 356 C Cabriolet Emory Special
1990 Porsche 911 reimagined by Singer - DLS
1995 Porsche 911 Carrera 2 by Gunther Werks
2019 Porsche 911 Speedster
2019 Porsche 911 Carrera S
1993 Porsche 968 Turbo S
2019 Porsche Macan Turbo
2019 RAESR Tachyon Speed
1967 Renault 8 Gordini
2016 Renault Clio R.S. 16 Concept
2008 Renault Megane R26.R
2018 Saleen S1
1993 Schuppan 962CR
2012 Shelby 1000
1965 Toyota Sports 800
1962 Triumph Spitfire
1970 Triumph TR6 PI
2018 Volkswagen I.D. R Pikes Peak
1983 Volkswagen Golf GTI
2021 Volkswagen Golf R
2016 Volvo Iron Knight
2020 Xpeng P7

Notes

Hot hatches and high performance SUVs seem very likely to be included in the game but I’m treating them with caution (i.e. marking as “highly probable” only three of the most obvious models) until at least one such car isn’t officially confirmed.
I’ve put some rally cars (like Ford GT70) on the list only because Peugeot 205 T16 is among confirmed cars. I assume Turn 10 is going to include at least other homologation rally models from the 80s to form a competition between them. And if 80s then maybe also 70s and 90s?
I’ve excluded all off-roaders, rallycross cars, trophy trucks, buggies etc., as well as other cars that don’t fit race tracks, e.g. 1991 Bentley Turbo R, 1968 Renault 4L or 2013 Wuling Sunshine.

That’s another 85 candidates to be borrowed from Forza Horizon. Some of these cars are more likely, others less. However, all of them don’t seem to be “must-have” from day one for a game focused on modern performance road-legal and racing cars.

Anyway, it gives us 145 cars in total - many more than Turn 10 promised to include in the game at launch. Does it mean we should expect all remaining “new-to-Motorsport” cars to be taken from Forza Horizon? I don’t think so.

There are still some “obvious” #NewToForza modern racing cars to be confirmed, such as Ferrari 488 GT3, McLaren 720S GT3 or Porsche 911 GT3 Cup 992. I’d also expect more than three TCR models to be included. And let us not forget that hundreds of cars are expected to be added after launch in “live service”, so Turn 10 is probably preparing some reserves of easy obtainable models (taken from FM7 or Forza Horizon) to be added each month (similar to how FH5 operates).

Do you agree with my predictions? I’d like to know what you think

Duckduck823030 · January 30, 2023, 4:20pm

Nice

trueblood1111 · January 31, 2023, 4:14am

I just hope my Sagaris makes it into the game with a refreshed model…

Kuruma_Designs · January 31, 2023, 6:08am

Wow didn’t realise there are that many new cars in horizon 4/5 compared to fm7

NeubaumTurk_HK · January 31, 2023, 10:31am

It’s bound to happen when games are separated by a large amount of time between releases. 2017 till current date is 6 years +.

GreaseRodSucho · February 1, 2023, 4:05pm

If we’re talking about remaining cars, I wouldn’t expect buggies, off-roader Baja models, and the like to make the cut. Unless if they were planning on adding dirt tracks (which they won’t), those would be relegated to Horizon.

As for other road cars, maybe they should also improve on not just the basic road cars but also performance SUVs, new trendy models (looking at you Infiniti Q60), etc.

Most of the FH5 road cars (be it car pass and playlist) should be in the game.

Draugnimir · February 4, 2023, 7:04pm

Here goes the second part of predictions - I’ve analysed the whole car list from FM7 and tried to guess (considering what models are already confirmed for the new FM) which vehicles are more probable to be included in sequel, which less and which most likely will be cut (e.g. off-roaders).

These are major categories of cars that I marked as highly probable to return: all race cars (old and new, with exception for models that should be replaced with newer counterparts), modern sports, super-, hyper- and other high performance cars (including the most powerful SUVs), cult classic sports cars, other cars featured in every or almost every Forza game, as well as cars that simply match those already confirmed (because Forza Motorsport series, just like any proper racing game, tends to group together similar cars for varied competition).

I’ve also included Lexus and Toyota models from FM6 (as these brands were almost entirely absent in FM7 due to licensing issues). Of course there is a possibility that more cars from previous Forza Motorsport games will be brought back for the launch roster. Not all of the over 400 cars remaining to be revealed necessarily need to come from FM7 or Forza Horizon 4/5.

I’m going to update the criteria and the list as Turn 10 reveals more cars featured in Forza Motorsport. There are ca. 750 cars in total so don’t be scared when you expand the list

Preliminary notes

I’m marking all Abarth, Alfa Romeo, Fiat and Lancia cars as “not-so-highly probable” to return at best, since these brands are still missing in Forza Horizon 5. However, I’ve put * by models which are highly likely to return if Turn 10 regains the license.
2013-2014 WTCC and BTCC cars are marked as “not-so-highly probable” to return as well, because they are pretty much outdated now and should be replaced with newer counterparts - if only Motorsport Games doesn’t have an exclusive license for BTCC (currently exploited by rFactor 2 devs).
The same goes for 2016-2017 NASCAR and Supercar V8 models.
All variants with different liveries are treated as one car.
I’ve excluded all Forza Edition and Fast & Furious Edition cars.

FM7 and FM6 cars already confirmed to return

1971 AMC Javelin AMX
1958 Aston Martin DBR1
1989 Aston Martin AMR1
2017 Aston Martin V12 Vantage GT3
2016 Aston Martin Vulcan
2016 Audi R8 V10 plus
2016 Audi #17 Rotek Racing TT RS
2014 Audi R18 e-tron quattro
2014 BAC Mono
1991 BMW M3
2016 BMW M6 GTLM
2018 BMW M8 GTE
2018 Bugatti Chiron
1970 Buick GSX
1966 Chaparral 2E
1969 Chevrolet Camaro SS Coupe
1970 Chevrolet Camaro Z28
2015 Chevrolet Corvette Daytona Prototype
1970 Chevrolet Chevelle SS 454
1969 Chevrolet Nova SS 396
1972 Chrysler VH Valiant Charger R/T E49
1970 Dodge Challenger R/T
1969 Dodge Charger R/T
2013 Donkervoort D8 GTO
1967 Eagle-Weslake T1G
1967 Ferrari 330 P4
1966 Ford GT40 Mk II Le Mans
2005 Ford GT
2017 Ford GT
2016 Ford GT Le Mans
1965 Ford Mustang GT Coupe
1969 Ford Mustang Boss 302
2015 Ford Riley Mk XXVI Daytona Prototype
1987 Ford Sierra Cosworth RS500
1967 Honda RA300
1983 Jaguar XJR-5
1988 Jaguar XJR-9
1993 Jaguar XJ220
2015 Jaguar XKR-S GT
1988 Lamborghini Countach LP5000 QV
1997 Lamborghini Diablo SV
2016 Lamborghini Centenario LP770-4
1969 Lola T163
1990 Mazda MX-5 Miata
1991 Mazda 787B
2010 Mazda B09/86
2014 Mazda B12/80
1966 McLaren M2B
1969 McLaren M8B
2013 McLaren P1
2018 McLaren Senna
1989 Mercedes-Benz Sauber C 9
1990 Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.5-16 Evolution II
2011 Mercedes-Benz SLS AMG
1970 Mercury Cougar Eliminator
1985 Nissan GTP ZX-Turbo
1991 Nissan R91CP
2015 Nissan GT-R LM Nismo
1969 Oldsmobile Hurst/Olds 442
1984 Peugeot 205 Turbo 16
1993 Peugeot 905 Evo 1C
1969 Pontiac GTO Judge
1973 Pontiac Firebird Trans Am SD-455
1987 Porsche 962C
2014 Porsche 918 Spyder
2017 Porsche 919 Hybrid
2017 Porsche 911 RSR
2018 Porsche 911 GT2 RS
2019 Porsche 911 GT3 RS
2015 Radical RXC Turbo
2004 Saleen S7
2014 Toyota TS040 Hybrid (FM6)

Cars that seem highly probable to return

2001 Acura Integra Type-R
2002 Acura RSX Type-S
2017 Acura NSX
1970 AMC Rebel ‘The Machine’
2013 Ariel Atom 500 V8
1964 Aston Martin DB5
2006 Aston Martin DBR9
2011 Aston Martin One-77
2016 Aston Martin Vantage GT12
2017 Aston Martin DB11
1983 Audi Sport quattro (due to confirmed Peugeot 205 T16)
1989 Audi 90 quattro IMSA GTO
2018 Audi RS 3 LMS
1995 Audi RS 2 Avant
2001 Audi RS 4 Avant
2006 Audi RS 4
2003 Audi RS 6
2009 Audi RS 6
2015 Audi RS 6 Avant
2013 Audi R8 Coupé V10 plus 5.2 FSI quattro
2014 Audi R8 LMS ultra
1939 Auto Union Type D
2017 Bentley Continental Supersports
2017 Bentley Continental GT3
1973 BMW 2002 Turbo
1975 BMW #25 BMW Motorsport 3.0 CSL
1981 BMW M1
1979 BMW M1 Procar
1999 BMW V12 LMR
2011 BMW 1 Series M
2016 BMW M2 Coupe
1997 BMW M3
2005 BMW M3
2008 BMW M3
2009 BMW M3 GT2
2014 BMW M4 Coupe
2016 BMW M4 GTS
1995 BMW M5
2003 BMW M5
2009 BMW M5
2012 BMW M5
2013 BMW M6 Coupe
2015 BMW i8
2014 BMW Z4 GTE
1967 Brabham BT24
1977 Brabham BT45B
1926 Bugatti Type 35 C
1992 Bugatti EB110 Super Sport
2011 Bugatti Veyron Super Sport
1987 Buick Regal GNX
2016 Cadillac ATS-V
2016 Cadillac CTS-V Coupe
2013 Caterham Superlight R500
1979 Chevrolet Camaro Z28
1990 Chevrolet Camaro IROC-Z
2002 Chevrolet Camaro 35th Anniversary SS
1960 Chevrolet Corvette
1967 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 427
1970 Chevrolet Corvette ZR-1
1976 Chevrolet #76 Greenwood Corvette
1995 Chevrolet Corvette ZR-1
2002 Chevrolet Corvette Z06
2009 Chevrolet Corvette ZR1
2011 Chevrolet Corvette Racing ZR1
2014 Chevrolet Corvette C7.R
2019 Chevrolet Corvette ZR1
2019 Chevrolet Dallara
2010 Chevrolet Oreca FLM09
1979 Datsun #33 Bob Sharp Racing 280ZX Turbo
1969 Dodge Charger Daytona Hemi
2015 Dodge Charger SRT Hellcat
1970 Dodge Coronet Super Bee
1999 Dodge Viper GTS ACR
2008 Dodge Viper SRT10 ACR
2013 Dodge SRT Viper GTS
2016 Dodge Viper ACR
2014 Dodge Viper GTS-R
1952 Ferrari 375
1953 Ferrari 500 Mondial
1957 Ferrari California
1957 Ferrari 250 Testa Rossa
1964 Ferrari F-158 F1
1962 Ferrari 250 GT Berlinetta Lusso
1962 Ferrari 250 GTO
1963 Ferrari 250LM
1968 Ferrari 365 GTB/4
1969 Ferrari Dino 246 GT
1971 Ferrari 312 P
1976 Ferrari 312 T2
1982 Ferrari 512 BB/LM
1984 Ferrari 288 GTO
1987 Ferrari F40
1989 Ferrari F40 Competizione
1990 Ferrari 641
1992 Ferrari 512 TR
1994 Ferrari F355 Berlinetta
1995 Ferrari F50
1996 Ferrari F50 GT
1998 Ferrari 333 SP
2002 Ferrari 575M Maranello
2002 Ferrari Enzo Ferrari
2003 Ferrari 360 Challenge Stradale
2007 Ferrari 430 Scuderia
2010 Ferrari 599 GTO
2010 Ferrari 599XX
2012 Ferrari 599XX Evolution
2009 Ferrari 458 Italia
2013 Ferrari 458 Speciale
2014 Ferrari 458 Italia GTE
2013 Ferrari La Ferrari
2014 Ferrari FXX K
2015 Ferrari 488 GTB
2015 Ferrari F12tdf
2017 Ferrari 812 Superfast
2017 Ferrari GTC4Lusso
1969 Ford Brawner Hawk III
1981 Ford Zakspeed Capri Turbo
1992 Ford Escort RS Cosworth
2015 Ford Falcon GT F 351
2009 Ford Focus RS
2017 Ford Focus RS
2013 Ford Formula Ecoboost 200
1971 Ford Mustang Mach 1
1982 Ford Mustang IMSA GT
1993 Ford SVT Cobra R
2000 Ford SVT Cobra R
2013 Ford Shelby GT500
2016 Ford Shelby GT350R
2018 Ford Mustang RTR
2017 Formula E
2012 Hennessey Venom GT
1997 Honda Civic Type R
2004 Honda Civic Type R
2007 Honda Civic Type R
2016 Honda Civic Type R
2018 Honda Civic Type R
2019 Honda Dallara
1992 Honda NSX-R
2005 Honda NSX-R
2009 Honda S2000 CR (unless Turn 10 swaps it for 2003 Honda S2000)
2019 Hyundai Veloster N
1954 Jaguar XK 120 SE
1956 Jaguar D-Type
1961 Jaguar E-Type S1
2015 Jaguar XFR-S
2012 Jaguar XKR-S
2014 Jaguar XK GT3
2015 Jaguar F-Type R Coupe
2016 Jaguar F-Type Project 7
2018 Jeep Grand Cherokee Trackhawk
2015 Koenigsegg One:1
2016 Koenigsegg Regera
2013 KTM X-Bow R
2018 KTM X-Bow GT4
1967 Lamborghini Miura P400
1999 Lamborghini Diablo GTR
2010 Lamborghini Murcielago LP670-4 SV
2008 Lamborghini Reventon
2011 Lamborghini Gallardo LP570-4 Superleggera
2014 Lamborghini Gallardo LP570-4 Super Trofeo
2011 Lamborghini Sesto Elemento
2012 Lamborghini Aventador LP700-4
2016 Lamborghini Aventador LP750-4 SV
2013 Lamborghini Veneno
2015 Lamborghini Huracan LP620-2 Super Trofeo
2015 Land Rover Range Rover SVR
2010 Lexus LFA
1969 Lola T70 MkIIIB
1956 Lotus Eleven
1967 Lotus Type 49
1976 Lotus 77
1997 Lotus Elise GT1
2012 Lotus Exige S
2016 Lotus 3-Eleven
1939 Maserati 8CTF
1953 Maserati A6GCS/53 Pininfarina Berlinetta
1957 Maserati 250F
1957 Maserati 300 S
1961 Maserati Tipo 61 Birdcage
2004 Maserati MC12
2010 Maserati GranTurismo S
2014 Maserati MC Trofeo
2005 Mazda Mazdaspeed MX-5
2013 Mazda MX-5
2013 Mazda MX-5 Cup
2016 Mazda MX-5
2015 Mazda Formula Mazda
1990 Mazda Savanna RX-7
1997 Mazda RX-7
2011 Mazda RX-8 R3
1976 McLaren M23
1988 McLaren MP4/4
1993 McLaren F1
1997 McLaren F1 GT
2011 McLaren 12C
2014 McLaren 12C GT3
2015 McLaren P1 GTR
2015 McLaren 570S Coupe
2015 McLaren 650S Coupe
2018 McLaren 720S
2016 Mercedes-AMG C 63 S Coupe
2015 Mercedes-AMG GT S
2017 Mercedes-AMG GT R
1939 Mercedes-Benz W154
1954 Mercedes-Benz 300 SL Coupe
1955 Mercedes-Benz 300 SLR
1998 Mercedes-Benz AMG CLK GTR
2013 Mercedes-Benz A 45 AMG
2012 Mercedes-Benz C 63 AMG Coupe Black Series
2009 Mercedes-Benz SL 65 AMG Black Series
2012 Mercedes-Benz SLK 55 AMG
2014 Mercedes-Benz SLS AMG GT3
1990 Mercury Cougar XR-7
1986 Merkur XR4Ti
1965 Mini Cooper S
1995 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
1997 Mitsubishi GTO
1999 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution VI GSR
2004 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution VIII MR
2006 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution IX MR
2008 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution X GSR
1967 Nissan R380 II
1969 Nissan R382
1998 Nissan R390
1984 Nissan Bluebird Super Silhouette
1969 Nissan Fairlady Z 432
1988 Nissan 300ZX (SCCA Trans-Am)
1994 Nissan Fairlady Z Version S Twin Turbo
1994 Nissan 300ZX (IMSA)
2003 Nissan Fairlady Z
1992 Nissan Silvia Club K’s
1993 Nissan 240SX SE
2000 Nissan Silvia Spec-R
1971 Nissan Skyline 2000GT-R
1984 Nissan Skyline Turbo Super Silhouette
1993 Nissan Skyline GT-R V-Spec
1995 Nissan Nismo GT-R LM
1997 Nissan Skyline GT-R V-Spec
2002 Nissan Skyline GT-R V-Spec II
2012 Nissan GT-R Black Edition
2015 Nissan GT-R (GT500)
2009 Pagani Zonda Cinque Roadster
2010 Pagani Zonda R
2012 Pagani Huayra
2016 Pagani Huayra BC
2011 Peugeot 908
1971 Plymouth Cuda 426 Hemi
1969 Pontiac Firebird Trans Am
1977 Pontiac Firebird Trans Am
1987 Pontiac Firebird Trans Am GTA
2002 Pontiac Firebird Trans Am Ram Air
1955 Porsche 550 Spyder
1960 Porsche 718 RS 60
1962 Porsche 804
1964 Porsche 904 Carrera GTS
1966 Porsche 906 Carrera 6
1971 Porsche 917/20
1973 Porsche 917/30 Can-Am Spyder
2008 Porsche RS Spyder Evo
2015 Porsche 919 Hybrid
1973 Porsche 911 Carrera RS
1978 Porsche 935/78
1982 Porsche 911 Turbo 3.3
1995 Porsche 911 GT2
1998 Porsche 911 GT1 Strassenversion
2004 Porsche 911 GT3
2012 Porsche 911 GT3 RS 4.0
2012 Porsche 911 GT2 RS
2011 Porsche 911 GT3 RSR
1987 Porsche 959
2003 Porsche Carrera GT
2016 Porsche Cayman GT4
2019 Porsche 718 Cayman GT4 Clubsport
2018 Porsche Cayenne Turbo
2017 Porsche Panamera Turbo
2011 Radical SR8 RX
1973 Renault Alpine A110S
1980 Renault 5 Turbo
1990 Renault Alpine GTA Le Mans (I’ve seen a glimpse of it in the last trailer)
2013 Renault Clio RS 200
1965 Shelby Cobra 427 S/C
1965 Shelby Cobra Daytona Coupe
1963 Shelby Monaco King Cobra
2013 Subaru BRZ
1998 Subaru Impreza 22B STi
2004 Subaru Impreza WRX STI
2005 Subaru Impreza WRX STI
2008 Subaru Impreza WRX STI
2011 Subaru WRX STI
2015 Subaru WRX STI
1992 Toyota Eagle Mk III
1998 TVR Cerbera Speed 12
2005 TVR Sagaris
1969 Toyota 2000GT
1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four ST205
1999 Toyota GT-One TS020
2013 Toyota GT86
1995 Toyota MR2 GT
1985 Toyota Sprinter Trueno GT Apex
1998 Toyota Supra RZ
2015 Ultima Evolution Coupe 1020
2014 Volkswagen Golf R (unless T10 swaps it for 2021 Golf R)
2011 Volkswagen Scirocco R
2017 VUHL 05RR
2016 W Motors Lykan HyperSport

Cars that seem not-so-highly probable to return

1968 Abarth 595 esseesse
1980 Abarth Fiat 131
2013 Abarth Punto SuperSport
2016 Abarth 695 Biposto*
1932 Alfa Romeo 8C 2300 Spider
1934 Alfa Romeo P3*
1950 Alfa Romeo 158*
1958 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint Veloce
1965 Alfa Romeo Giulia Sprint GTA Stradale*
1965 Alfa Romeo Giulia TZ2*
1968 Alfa Romeo 33 Stradale*
1970 Alfa Romeo Montreal
1986 Alfa Romeo GTV-6
1986 Alfa Romeo Spider Quadrifoglio Verde
1990 Alfa Romeo SZ Sprint Zagato
1992 Alfa Romeo Milano Quadrifoglio Verde
1992 Alfa Romeo 155 Q4
2007 Alfa Romeo 8C Competizione*
2014 Alfa Romeo 4C*
2011 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Quadrifoglio Verde
2017 Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio*
1970 AMC Pacer X
1960 Aston Martin DB4 GT Zagato
1977 Aston Martin V8 Vantage
1998 Aston Martin V8 Vantage V600
2008 Aston Martin DBS
2012 Aston Martin V12 Zagato
2013 Aston Martin V12 Vantage S (could be replaced with 2018 Aston Martin Vantage)
1986 Audi Sport quattro S1
2015 Audi S1
2011 Audi RS 3 Sportback
2015 Audi S3 Sedan (could be replaced with 2020 Audi RS 3 Sedan)
2014 Audi S3 Saloon (BTCC)
2004 Audi S4
2011 Audi RS 5 Coupe (could be replaced with 2018 Audi RS 5 Coupe)
2013 Audi RS 7 Sportback (could be replaced with 2021 Audi RS 7 Sportback)
2009 Audi Q7 V12 TDI
2010 Audi TT RS Coupe
2015 Audi TTS Coupe (could be replaced with 2018 Audi TT RS)
2011 Audi R15++ TDI
2012 Audi R18 e-tron quattro
2016 Bentley Bentayga
2013 Bentley Continental GT Speed
1939 BMW 328
1959 BMW 507
1986 BMW M635 CSi
1995 BMW 850 CSi
2014 BMW 125i M Sport (BTCC)
2000 BMW 323ti Sport
1988 BMW M5
2010 BMW M6 Coupe
2011 BMW X5 M
2015 BMW X6 M
2002 BMW Z3 M Coupe
2008 BMW Z4 M Coupe
2011 BMW Z4 sDrive35is
2000 BMW Z8
2011 Cadillac CTS-V Coupe
1955 Chevrolet 150 Utility Sedan
1957 Chevrolet Bel Air
2012 Chevrolet Camaro ZL1
2017 Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 (could be replaced with 2018 Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 1LE)
1967 Chevrolet Chevelle SS 396
1953 Chevrolet Corvette
2015 Chevrolet Corvette Z06 (could be replaced with 2019 Chevrolet Corvette ZR1)
2014 Chevrolet Cruze TC1 WTCC
1970 Chevrolet El Camino SS 454
1964 Chevrolet Impala SS 409
2017 Chevrolet IndyCar (could be replaced with 2019 Chevrolet Dallara)
1988 Chevrolet Monte Carlo SS
1966 Chevrolet Nova SS
2014 Chevrolet Super Sport
2017 Chevrolet Super Sport (NASCAR)
1971 Chevrolet Vega GT
2012 Chrysler 300 SRT8
1969 Datsun 2000 Roadster
1970 Datsun 510
2012 Dodge Challenger SRT8 392
2015 Dodge Challenger SRT Hellcat (could be replaced with 2018 Challenger SRT Demon)
2012 Dodge Charger SRT8
1967 Dodge Coronet W023
1968 Dodge Dart Hemi Super Stock
2013 Dodge Dart GT
2018 Dodge Durango SRT
1986 Dodge Shelby Omni GLHS
2005 Dodge SRT-4 ACR
1998 Eagle Talon TSi Turbo
2018 Exomotive Exocet Sport V8 XP-5
1948 Ferrari 166 Inter Sport
1948 Ferrari 166MM Barchetta
2004 Ferrari 612 Scaglietti
2008 Ferrari California
2014 Ferrari California T
2011 Ferrari 458 Italia GTC
2011 Ferrari FF
2012 Ferrari F12berlinetta
1952 Fiat 8V Supersonic
1969 Fiat Dino 2.4 Coupe
1975 Fiat X1/9
1980 Fiat 124 Sport Spider
2017 Fiat 124 Spider Abarth
1932 Ford Custom ‘Double Down’
1932 Ford Roadster ‘Hula Girl’
1932 Ford De Luxe Five-Window Coupe
1940 Ford De Luxe Coupe
1973 Ford Capri RS3100
2010 Ford Crown Victoria Police Interceptor
1973 Ford Escort RS1600
1977 Ford Escort RS1800
1964 Ford Fairlane Thunderbolt
1967 Ford Falcon XR GT
1971 Ford Falcon XY GTHO Phase III
1972 Ford Falcon XA GT-HO
1973 Ford XB Falcon GT
1992 Ford Falcon GT
2014 Ford FPV Limited Edition Pursuit Ute
2015 Ford Falcon XR8
2015 Ford Falcon FG X (Supercar V8)
1981 Ford Fiesta XR2
2014 Ford Fiesta ST
2003 Ford Focus RS
2016 Ford Fusion (NASCAR)
1966 Ford Lotus Cortina
1978 Ford Mustang II King Cobra
1995 Ford SVT Cobra R
2007 Ford Shelby GT500
2018 Ford Mustang RTR Spec 5
1985 Ford RS200 Evolution (in theory it matches Peugeot 205 T16 but it’s far more powerful)
1989 Formula Drift #98 BMW 325i (all FD cars from FM7 could return but they could also be replaced with newer models introduced in FH4/FH5)
2006 Formula Drift #43 Dodge Viper SRT10
2015 Formula Drift #13 Ford Mustang
2016 Formula Drift #530 HSV Maloo Gen-F
1995 Formula Drift #118 Nissan 240SX
1996 Formula Drift #232 Nissan 240SX
1997 Formula Drift #777 Nissan 240SX
1985 HDT VK Commodore Group A
1968 Holden Monaro GTS 327
1973 Holden HQ Monaro GTS 350
1977 Holden Torana A9X
1988 Holden VL Commodore Group A SV
2009 Holden HSV W427
2015 Holden VF Commodore (Supercar V8)
1986 Honda Civic Si
2014 Honda Civic Si
2014 Honda Civic WTCC
1984 Honda Civic CRX Mugen
1991 Honda CR-X SiR
2017 Honda IndyCar (could be replaced with 2019 Honda Dallara)
1994 Honda Prelude Si
2000 Honda Prelude Type SH
1970 Honda S800
1955 Hoonigan Chevrolet Belair (fate of Hoonigans remains to be determined after their deal with CSR2)
1972 Hoonigan Chevrolet “Napalm Nova”
1978 Hoonigan Ford Escort RS1800
1965 Hoonigan Ford “Hoonicorn” Mustang
2003 Hoonigan Holden Commodore Ute
1992 Hoonigan Mazda RX-7 Twerkstallion
1991 Hoonigan Rauh-Welt Begriff Porsche 911 Turbo
1996 HSV GTSR
2011 HSV GTS
2014 HSV Gen-F GTS
2014 HSV Limited Edition Gen-F GTS Maloo
2013 Hyundai Veloster Turbo
2003 Infiniti G35 Coupe
2012 Infiniti IPL G Coupe
2015 Infiniti Q60 Concept
2014 Infiniti Q50 Eau Rouge
1959 Jaguar Mk II 3.8
2015 Jaguar XE-S
2017 Jaguar F-Pace S
1990 Jaguar XJ-S
2009 Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT8
2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT
2018 Kia Stinger
2011 Koenigsegg Agera (it could be replaced with 2017 Agera RS)
1988 Lamborghini Jalpa
2014 Lamborghini Huracan LP610-4 (it could be replaced with 2020 Huracan Evo)
1968 Lancia Fulvia Coupé Rallye 1.6 HF
1975 Lancia Stratos HF Stradale*
1980 Lancia Beta Montecarlo Turbo*
1982 Lancia 037 Stradale*
1986 Lancia Delta S4*
1992 Lancia Delta HF Integrale Evo*
2012 Land Rover Range Rover Supercharged
2013 Lexus GS350 F Sport
2009 Lexus IS F
2014 Lexus IS 350 F Sport
2015 Lexus RC F (it could be replaced with 2020 Lexus RC F Track Edition)
1997 Lexus SC300
1971 Lotus Elan Sprint
1999 Lotus Elise Series 1 Sport 190
2000 Lotus 340R
2005 Lotus Elise 111S
2002 Lotus Esprit V8
2009 Lotus 2-Eleven
2011 Lotus Evora S
1997 Maserati Ghibli Cup
2014 Maserati Ghibli S Q4
2017 Maserati Levante S
1972 Mazda Cosmo 110S Series II
1973 Mazda RX-3
1985 Mazda RX-7 GSL-GE
2010 Mazda Mazdaspeed 3
2010 Mazda MX-5 Super20
1967 Mercedes-Benz 280 SL
1972 Mercedes-Benz 300 SEL 6.3
2014 Mercedes-Benz A-Class (WTCC)
2004 Mercedes-Benz C 32 AMG
2013 Mercedes-Benz E 63 AMG (could be replaced with 2018 Mercedes-AMG E 63 S)
2015 Mercedes-Benz E 63 AMG V8 Supercar
2013 Mercedes-Benz G 65 AMG
2009 Mercedes-Benz ML 63 AMG
2015 Mercedes-Benz Racing Truck
1949 Mercury Coupe
1958 MG MGA Twin-Cam
2009 Mini John Cooper Works
2012 Mini John Cooper Works GP (could be replaced with 2021 Mini JCW GP)
1992 Mitsubishi Galant VR-4
1988 Mitsubishi Starion ESI-R
2017 Nissan Altima (Supercar V8)
2010 Nissan 370Z (could be replaced with 2019 Nissan 370Z Nismo)
2015 Nissan IDx Nismo
2014 Nissan Juke Nismo RS
1966 Nissan Silvia
1994 Nissan Silvia K’s
1998 Nissan Silvia K’s Aero
1973 Nissan Skyline H/T 2000GT-R
1987 Nissan Skyline GTS-R (R31)
2017 Nissan GT-R (could be replaced with 2020 Nissan GT-R Nismo)
2010 Noble M600
1968 Opel GT
1979 Opel Kadett C GT/E
1984 Opel Manta 400
2011 Peugeot 308 GTI
1958 Plymouth Fury
1971 Plymouth GTX 426 Hemi
2000 Plymouth Prowler
1965 Pontiac GTO
2009 Pontiac G8 GXP
2009 Pontiac Solstice GXP
1957 Porsche 356A Speedster
1970 Porsche 914/6
1980 Porsche 924 Carrera GTS
1989 Porsche 944 Turbo
1993 Porsche 928 GTS
1993 Porsche 911 Turbo S Leichtbau
2014 Porsche 911 Turbo S
2016 Porsche 911 GT3 RS (it could be swapped for 2019 GT3 RS)
2012 Porsche Cayenne Turbo
2015 Porsche Macan Turbo
1993 Renault Clio Williams
2003 Renault Clio V6
2010 Renault Clio RS
2010 Renault Megane RS 250 (it could be replaced with 2018 Megane R.S.)
2017 Renault R.S.17 (it could be replaced with a newer F1 model)
2016 Spania GTA Spano
1980 Subaru BRAT GL
1990 Subaru Legacy RS
2005 Subaru Legacy B4 2.0 GT
1996 Subaru SVX
2017 Tamo Racemo
2014 Toyota Avensis (WTCC)
2016 Toyota Camry (NASCAR)
1974 Toyota Celica GT
1992 Toyota Celica GT-Four RC ST185
2003 Toyota Celica
1974 Toyota Corolla SR5
1989 Toyota MR2 SC
2014 Toyota #12 Rebellion Racing Lola R-One
2006 Vauxhall Astra VXR
2012 Vauxhall Astra VXR
2009 Vauxhall Corsa VXR
2016 Vauxhall Corsa VXR
1990 Vauxhall Lotus Carlton
1963 Volkswagen Beetle
1967 Volkswagen Type 3 1600 L
1967 Volkswagen Karmann Ghia
1995 Volkswagen Corrado VR6
1984 Volkswagen Rabbit GTI (it could be replaced with 1983 Golf GTI)
1992 Volkswagen Golf GTI 16v Mk2
1998 Volkswagen Golf GTI VR6 Mk3
2003 Volkswagen Golf R32
2010 Volkswagen Golf R
1981 Volkswagen Scirocco S
1988 Volkswagen Scirocco 16v
2008 Volkswagen Touareg R50
1967 Volvo 123GT
1972 Volvo 1800E
1983 Volvo 242 Turbo Evolution
1997 Volvo 850R
2015 Volvo S60 Polestar
2015 Volvo V60 Polestar
2014 Volvo S60 STCC
2017 Volvo XC90 R-Design
2016 Zenvo ST1 (it could be replaced with 2019 Zenvo TSR-S)

Just like with cars from the analogical category on the first list, some models listed above have more chances to reappear and some less.

Cars that seem highly probable to be cut

2015 Alumi Craft Class 10 Race Car
2016 Ariel Nomad
2015 Bentley EXP 10 Speed 6 Concept (I expect it to be replaced soon with a production model from the third generation of Bentley Continental GT)
1957 BMW Isetta 300 Export
2012 Bowler EXR-S
2012 Cadillac Escalade ESV
2013 Cadillac XTS Limousine
2016 Chevrolet Camaro SS (I think Turn 10 doesn’t want to use it anymore with 2017 Camaro ZL1 and 2018 Camaro ZL1 1LE available)
1970 Chevrolet Chevelle Super Sport Barrett-Jackson Edition
2017 Chevrolet Colorado ZR2
1970 Citroen 2CV
1975 Ford Bronco
1975 Ford Bronco Barrett-Jackson Edition
1956 Ford F-100
2011 Ford F-150 SVT Raptor
2013 Ford F-150 SVT Raptor Shelby
2014 Ford F-150 Trophy Truck
2017 Ford F-150 Raptor
2017 Ford F-150 Raptor Race Truck
2016 Ford Gymkhana 9 Focus RS RX
2015 Ford Mustang GT (I bet it’ll be replaced with 2018 Mustang GT, just like in Forza Horizon)
2014 Ford Ranger T6 Rally Raid
1946 Ford Super Deluxe Station Wagon
2011 Ford Transit SuperSportVan
1983 GMC Vandura G-1500
1951 Holden 50-2106 FX Ute
1974 Holden Sandman HQ panel van
2018 Honda Odyssey
2015 Honda Ridgeline Baja Trophy Truck
2011 Hot Wheels Bone Shaker
1969 Hot Wheels Chevrolet Camaro Super Sport Coupe 50th Anniversary Original Version
1970 Hot Wheels Chevrolet Corvette ZR-1 50th Anniversary Original Version
2005 Hot Wheels Ford Mustang
2012 Hot Wheels Rip Rod
1969 Hot Wheels Twin Mill
1963 Hot Wheels Volkswagen Beetle 50th Anniversary Original Version
2006 Hummer H1 Alpha
2019 Hyundai Veloster Turbo (Turn 10 doesn’t need it alongside the very similar 2019 Veloster N)
1970 International Scout 800A
1945 Jeep Willys MB
1976 Jeep CJ5 Renegade
1991 Jeep Grand Wagoneer
2012 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon
2016 Jeep Trailcat
1986 Lamborghini LM 002
2014 Lamborghini Urus Concept (certainly going to be replaced with 2019 Urus)
1975 Lancia Stratos HF Group 4
1985 Lancia Delta S4 Group B
1972 Land Rover Series III
1997 Land Rover Defender 90
2017 Lincoln Continental
2014 Local Motors Rally Fighter
1994 Mazda MX-5 Miata (it’s not needed alongside the already confirmed 1990 MX-5)
1968 Meyers Manx
2014 Mini All4 Racing X-Raid
1985 Nissan Safari Turbo
2016 Nissan Titan Warrior Concept
2011 Penhall The Cholla
1959 Plymouth Atomic Punk Bubbletop
1970 Plymouth Hemi Cuda Convertible Barrett-Jackson Edition
2015 Polaris RZR XP 1000 EPS
2013 Ram Runner
2017 Ram 2500 Power Wagon
2016 RJ Anderson Pro 2 Truck
2016 Rolls-Royce Dawn (licensing)
2014 Rolls-Royce Wraith (licensing)
1968 Subaru 360
2016 Subaru WRX STI VT15r Rally Car
1993 Toyota T100 Baja Truck
2007 Toyota Hilux Arctic Trucks AT38
2016 Toyota Land Cruiser Arctic Trucks AT37
1963 Volkswagen Type 2 De Luxe
1970 Volkswagen #1107 Desert Dingo Racing Stock Bug
2015 Volkswagen Global RallyCross Beetle

Summary:

746 cars in total on the list (728 from FM7 + 18 Toyota and Lexus models from FM6).
72 cars already confirmed to return.
305 cars that seem very likely to return.
295 cars that seem less likely to return.
74 cars that seem very likely to be cut.

Questions? Corrections? I had doubts about many cars so I’m definitely open for discussion …and I think I’m going to change my mind about some cars myself when I look at the list again

(BTW, in the meantime I’ve added three missing Ford models from FH4/FH5 to the first list: Escort '86, GT40 Mk I, Mustang GT '18)

trueblood1111 · February 4, 2023, 7:49pm

I’m convinced they’re gonna take my sagaris away from me.

Draugnimir · February 6, 2023, 7:38pm

TVR Sagaris was featured in every Forza game up to date (apart from FM1) so it would seem logical for it to be included in the new Forza Motorsport as well… However, after Forza Horizon 5 there is also possibility that Turn 10 will exclude any car from the launch line-up to “add” it later as part of the live service

x_Ak1504_x · February 14, 2023, 2:08pm

I can’t wait till they start to reveal the car list. Hopefully soon

Draugnimir · March 29, 2023, 5:18pm

With Series 19 launching in FH5, finally I have some material to update the list in the first post with

Neither Rally Adventure expansion, nor Series 18 have introduced even one car that could be suitable for the upcoming Forza Motorsport. However, all four #NewToForza cars from Series 19 seem strong candidates to be included in the game - although I think Rimac Nevera and Lexus LC500 are more probable as day-one cars than Cadillacs CT4-V and CT5-V.

Rimac Nevera makes an especially interesting case here. Its availability means that Turn 10 no longer needs Rimac C_Two, so I’ve swapped it for the Nevera on the list.

EpicEvan777 · March 30, 2023, 3:42pm

People will disagree with me, but I’m quite happy the car list is being cut. It lends an opportunity to better tailor the upgrade and tuning system, the PI Class and Homologation system, the cosmetic modifications and painting system, and in general, the physics and handling models.

The problem is, if you’re a long time Forza player, you know that Turn 10 is not going to take any advantage of this, and you should realise the fact they are STILL using car models that are 16 years old is an indication they will not take this opportunity.

We should prioritise quality over quantity, and cutting the car count GIVES Turn 10 the chance to focus on that, but the incompetence since FM4, which is 12 years ago I might add, proves that they won’t.

GBalao888 · March 31, 2023, 5:19am

Makes me believe that rally and off-road racing won’t be a thing at least at launch. Motorsport is in serious need of off-road and rallying, to be honest, and it’s only a matter of time when they will actually get to implement it. I believe SUV’s and some pick-up trucks will still be there at launch, but the rally cars, heavy off-roaders and trophy trucks will likely not make the cut until there is at least some form of rallying in the game.

FM8 has the potential to have an even larger and more diverse car list than Motorsport 7 post-launch, and it was expected that the launch day car list would be slightly smaller (over 500 cars) as opposed to over 750 (786 from Motorsport 7, in fact, minus these pointless Forza Editions). I really hope they don’t continue with doing Forza Editions for this game, as they are boring, uninspired and inflate the car list in such an unnecessary way (every car is unique, but not these Forza Editions).

I probably don’t see NASCAR and/or IndyCar happening because of their involvement with the Ponzi scheme that is Motorsport Games. They go as far as holding them up with licensing and yet their games, as well as their business model, aren’t doing so well.

Just really hope that not a lot has been cut to such an extent. I still dream of every car from FM4 making it to the game eventually though.

I’m predicting at least every Hypercar and Extreme Track Toy from FH5 (minus Forza editions and the Sierra Cars Alpha Pikes Peak) will make it to FM8.

Duckduck823030 · April 18, 2023, 4:21pm

This would be nice if you were doing a list with the cars who never appeared in Forza franchise with their probabilities to appear in FM.

Draugnimir · April 18, 2023, 4:31pm

That would be one hell of an undertaking

However, I could say that one of my lists serves that purpose to some extent:

There are all cars from the Suggestions Hub that have 100 votes or more (as well as cars with 86+ votes on the second, hidden list at the bottom). Those with the biggest amount of votes (highlighted in bold) are the most probable to be featured in Forza games sooner or later… unless they aren’t lost in some kind of licensing hell (e.g. Mercedes SLR McLaren)

SoftMore15 · April 20, 2023, 4:00pm

300 cars had a great run while it lasted. Now its time for Turn 10 to let these cars go.

Draugnimir · April 22, 2023, 7:46am

So we have another FH5 update announced and another four #NewToForza cars to add to the list. That’s really nice.

But… four? Not really, since both Porsche Mission R and Porsche 935 were earlier revealed as content in Forza Motorsport (albeit the latter was later mysteriously removed from the launch list).

As for Lamborghini Huracan STO and the new Audi RS 6 Avant - both are “must-haves” for Forza Motorsport and I’m sure we’ll see them in the game at launch.

GBalao888 · May 7, 2023, 3:59pm

At this point, I hope a believable launch day car list is leaked.

Draugnimir · May 25, 2023, 10:49am

We have six #NewToForza cars coming to FH5 with the Series 21 update. I think two of them perhaps could be added to Forza Motorsport: Cupra Formentor and Tavascan (or three if Turn 10 wishes to let us have some dumb fun on racing circuits in the Hummer EV )

DactylicSeven3 · May 26, 2023, 1:31pm

As far as I’m concerned, the best would be to have only high-performance cars, supercars and hypercars. In addition, of course, to racing cars. Enough with vans and SUVs, there’s Horizon for those, they don’t give any emotion on the track.