Microsoft didn’t decide that Forza 5 was going to take away any incentive Artists had to create designs and logo’s and paints. That was Turn 10.
Microsoft didn’t make Turn 10 not give any feedback to the community over the last several months. I see updates, and it’s as if they have no clue how unhappy their “repeat customers” are with the product.
It may well be true but I don’t believe it would be the cause of the extreme lack of race cars.
turn ten are microsoft employees. you cant seperate turn ten from microsoft. as far as wanting money that goes for turn 10 also. i’m willing dan drives a much better car than any of us do. i dont believe they are listening to us, i dont believe they care. the mods love to refer people to fbforzamotospot@microsoft.com or what ever it is which results in a “due to high volume you have recieved this form letter…” its another way of saying talk to the hand. if dan feels like an innocent whipping boy he can quit at any time but he dosn’t. he likes that paycheck too much. turn ten loves to claim the game is so small because it takes 6 months to make a car and a year to makee a track. really? then how are they releasing 10 cars a month when it takes 5 years to make those 10 cars? how is day 1 dlc not able to be included in the game? turn 10 went on a hiring spree and actually had to move offices when forza 3 was made. its not like 3 buddies slaving away in their basement. its hundreds and hundreds of people just at turn ten, and then they outsource alot of the work of making the tracks and cars.
you are new here so you dont remember the forza 2 days. cheespace was the turn ten community manage AND moderator. he posted on here all the time, probably 50-100 posts a day. atleast 1 person from turn ten actually did listen to us and talked to dan almost every day. guess who shot him down when he asked to give us more? some of the time marketing but often dan. dan is one of the suits calling the shots, he is the boss not some lackey in a cubical just following orders.
the old site is archived just go back and read the oldest posts on the forza 3 boards before forza 3 was released. dan has or had control over everything except marketing. dan as studio head gets a bonus on all forza sales, every dlc bought puts money in dans pocket. are there innocent lackeys at turn 10? sure, there are at every large company. but dans not one of them. dan is not an “us” he’s a “them”. even back when the mod was a turn ten employee dan hardly ever posted here. i think i remember seeing maybe 3 posts in a year and nothing since from dan. the mods are now all voulenteers, not turn ten employees. who do you think made that choice, the choice to basically sever community communication? dan
back when che was here we didn’t get given an email address to complain to…he listened to it. he may have told us politly to jump in a lake but he didn’t give us a form letter. if we had a glitch and lost something we weren’t told to call anyone…che got us our stuff back. che raced with us all the time. che was one of us. yes che had blogs, but he also had a presence here. and we lost che to 343. like dan he had a choice. if he wasn’t getting enough one place he went someplace else. now hes team halo not team forza. and hes not a community manager anymore where he has to keep telling people he’s not allowed to tell us about unreleased stuff yet. if turn ten wants us to give them something they should give us something. get us another che. get us someone with not only the authority to mod the users but with the authority to get stuff on the turn 10 servers fixed. get us someone who talks to us AND them everyday. get us an employee who’s not too good or too busy to “waste” time on the forums. someone who spends time here and in the game even off the clock on weekends because he is one of us, one of the community.
I give TREMENDOUS amount of credit to T10 for getting FM5 ready at XB1 launch.
Having more time does NOT GUARANTEE a better or more complete title. FM5 was completed to its launch objectives. This does not mean it met all of the player’s expectations. There is a significant difference between T10/Dan’s launch objectives and our expectations.
The physics simulation & graphics engines are complete. I would much rather race 200 cars on 14 tracks than to wait another year, with information under wraps, and with NO GUARANTEE of more content.
If FM5 was to be released in 2014, we may have 260 cars and 1 or more tracks? Is 60 additional cars and couple more tracks worth waiting 1 full year? Are people willing to wait 5 years for FM5 so they could have FM4 car roster in FM5? I say NO!
I am fully satisfied with an update release every 2 years. It is incredible that T10 was/is able to keep up with this tough schedule for past 10+ years. For all the enjoyment and thrill FM series has given me, I am very very grateful to T10.
That said . . . the car packs for FM4/Horizon/ and especially FM5 are becoming less and less palatable to me.
RECOGNIZE THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE PREVIOUSLY PURCHASED THESE CARS & PACKS.
The game is a few months old and stale. What incentive is there for me to wait a year so MAYBE I get what I/we want? In a year at this point there won’t be many playing. Look at the previous titles activity drops as the game ages. Without any info in regards to the current FM5 title’s forward direction, why should I or anyone else stay and play? This isn’t a complaint is a point of view that many have. What are the circumstances around FM5? Further if the expansions are numerous along with the 12 car packs we are looking at paying around $200 us dollars for a game. For that price I would like and somewhat expect a little bit of insight as to what to expect if anything.
Yep, check the history any Windows operating system.
Microsoft owns Turn 10. Blame whoever you feel comfortable with if you aren’t happy the product you purchased. If you are a smart tech consumer and did not let fanboyness sway your decision, waiting on purchasing either of the new next gen consoles was a no brainer.
Dan Greenawalt and turn 10 studios made forza 5, any praise or disappointment would and should be directed towards them not microsoft. I don’t know why they should be cut any slack for the game they didn’t cut us any slack with the prices of anything, they’ve increased the prices for less content. They’ve also have had more time than most to make the game they said they were working on 5 before 4 came out so that’s a good 2.5 to 3 years, and also being part of microsoft studios they had more insight regarding this new console compared to other developers of the launch games so they had more time and tools at their disposal and this is the game we got. I’m fine with a launch game having less content but the fact that many features of past forza games over the past 10 years are either broken or totally missing and the sheer amount of technical bugs and glitches in this game still really bother me. Dan kept saying if things weren’t up to his high standard they were scrapped or redone, but apparently they didn’t look at anything besides tracks or cars (which still have vinyl glitches on the same cars from past games how do you ignore them they’ve been reported by users for years). I still remember him saying the words “quality over quantity”, but after 2 months of this game being out and no fixes for various issues I just don’t see the quality he was talking about
Yes exactly MS decides on the number of tracks, the number of cars,
Which tracks, which cars, it decides to get rid off the storefront, the auction house, it decides to get rid off multiplayer replays, clubs,
MS told T10 to… You name it… Just check the games feature wishlist, just read all the hate threads, just read all the whining complaints,
Bad, bad MS, its all their fault - because they pull the strings - just read the small letters on the back of your gamecover its there
So much for your MS is the ultimate decider on which features should or should not be in the game
How many times do I have to spell this out. MICROSOFT WANTS A 2 YEAR RELEASE CYCLE. Not only that they wanted forza as a launch title. T10 did not have enough time to put all the cars and tracks back in so they chose the ones to leave behind for now, because Microsoft didn’t give them enough time to start a game over from scratch. That’s not T10s fault you try developing a game like forza in 2 years I guarantee it’s almost impossible.
As for the storefront being gone. That would easily be because to many people abused it too many people stole and modded and hacked from other players and were making literally 100s of millions off of other peoples stuff. That is all OUR FAULT.
Clubs and replays once again forza was release to early. I’m very confident that all of that will be returning in the future.
You lack the common knowledge and common sense of the way businesses work that is very clear, and yet you have the nerve to sit there and be extremely ignorant over an OPINIONATED thread about something you don’t even see the big picture on.
As to your two year production cycle I have already tried to explain it in the previous posts - I wont go repeating it like you are doing it on and on
As to the storefront, clubs, replay: its just so funny that you have the need to go into this not understanding the sarcasm behind my previous post
Its just so pathetic that you had to resort twice to insulting people just to make it seem that you know it all, this big picture argument about me being blind, lacking knowkedge and you being the know-it-all guy who has to teach everyone a lesson just shows how deep someone has to fall if he wants to make a claim
Me lacking common knowledge, common sense? I have attended universities in three countries, am proficient in eight languages, have a PhD., teach at university as an assistant, and as to not knowing how businesses work, I have been an interpreter during major business deals of multinationals being closer to the practices you are just trying to speculate about. True, I am not an insider in game developping, but neither are you, but if you are interested you should read introverts post who is not a conspiracy theorist like you but someone who probably knows the “big picture” better than you
{Mod Edit - personal attacks removed. KNOCK IT OFF. - MM}
{Mod Edit - personal attacks removed. KNOCK IT OFF. - MM}
Hey I’ve got a solution. If you don’t like it don’t buy it. I know Forza 5 is a cash cow, but it’s still a great game and I will be buying the dlc that I want. I can’t wait for Forza 6 and you know what I’ll buy the dlc again, because it’ll be another great game.
I agree completely
It’s not that I don’t like it you are missing the point. The point is that too many people are pointing fingers and the wrong people. Literally degrading T10 in some instances. Forza 5 has it’s flaws yes. It has things I don’t like and it doesn’t compare to forza 4 in terms on content, but by no means am I saying I don’t like the game.
if its all microsoft making all the decisions and not dan he would have been fired long ago. they would be paying him millions for what? to be a high salary microphone to relay their orders? they could just send a memo or email. ms give dan a budget, a deadline and personnel and tell him to go make a game. microsoft sets the pricing but the game content is all dan, what to hold out for dlc is dan. dan is in charge. when dan responds to complaints does he say “they” or does he say “we” when referring to who makes decisions. read his interview about why they did the economy overhaul. the only time he used the word they he was referring to the customers, the players. dan has to give alot more orders than he has to follow. hes the project lead, that is his job, giving the orders for other people to do. he is a boss, not an employee, an officer not enlisted, white collar not blue collar. if you have doubts about dans level of authority go to work for turn ten, i’m sure he has a pink slip with your name on it that will convince you that he does indeed have authority. you notice how few leaks forza ever has? he runs a tight ship. nobody at turn ten doubts his authority. he’s not your drinking buddy on campus…he is your boss. dan calls the shots.
Yes Dan calls the shots on what content to put and not put in and what cars are DLC. Microsoft decides how to go about the game in terms of purchasable content and DLC and deadlines that make the game incomplete at launch like I’ve said before. Microsoft funds T10 Dan rims T10 but Microsoft is his superior. They say (and this is just an example) here’s the money go make a game, but these are our guidelines you must follow for our funding money. You must release it every two years. You must make it an xbox one launch title you must have microtrasactions and monthly DLC so people will buy our Microsoft points.
Think about it
I have to go with the Mike Holmes (Holmes on Homes, or Holmes Inspection) philosophy here. He always says, “make it right.” So whomever is at fault don’t cater to the eaches but rather to the masses. If we find problems and logically and realistically offer solutions then just make it right.
These conspiracy threads crack me up. I work for a major game developer on a pretty big franchise, I have a sense of how these things work, even though I don’t work on Forza (although I did work on FM3 as a contractor).
I know nothing about Forza 5, but as someone who’s worked on games straddling a console transition (i.e. shipping current gen and next gen at the same time), my take is this:
Content doesn’t just move from Xbox 360 to Xbox One easily. I mean, maybe they could have copy pasted a ton of cars over, but they wouldn’t be taking advantage of the power of a new machine, and the game would look last gen. They had to rebuild these assets. Every car had to be modeled for their poly count target for the new system. However their material system works, all of those materials had to be rebuilt. Every track has to be rebuilt, from the layout of the road down to the leaves on the trees. The only thing they really get “for free” is their reference materials, the data they’ve collected building cars and tracks over the years. But I strongly suspect, comparing FM5 to its predecessors, that just about everything was built from scratch here.
So they had to do all of that in two years. For a new machine. And let me tell you, it’s not like they had the Xbox One for two years. Oh no, that’s not how console transitions go. You’re LUCKY if you get final hardware 6 months before your game hits shelves. Prior to that, you’re working to what we call “target spec.” This is usually a PC with components inside it that are close, but not exactly like, what will be in the final machine. So you go down rabbit holes and get burned. You take advantage of some resource you thought you had, only to find out it’s been cut from the final console hardware. It’s like trying to paint a portrait on a canvas that’s changing sizes. It’s very difficult. So in the last six months everyone goes mad trying to make sure the game will run on the final hardware. Bug counts are much higher than shipping on hardware you’ve worked with previously. You run into situations where the console manufacturer has decided to make a change to a piece of hardware, and suddenly you have to make broad stroke changes to every asset in the game to compensate and ensure that everything still works smoothly.
Making matters even worse, the OS and APIs are in flux, and they often crash. Did your game crash? Or did the OS crash? I hope you got a dump so you can figure it out. The APIs, the software that acts as a middle-man between the game and the console hardware, are in development. DirectX. These things get tweaked right up until launch, and you’re left scrambling to make adjustments to your game to ensure nothing breaks. Sometimes you run into situations where something in your game is broken, and it’s a low-level issue, so it stays broken until the console maker fixes it. For example, there might be an awful audio bug where there are pops and crackles all over the place and it sounds like you’re listening to the sounds of your game from a vinyl record. And you wait and wait and wait for the fix, and then OMG it arrives three days before the game is on shelves so you scramble to get a fix into the 0day patch because the fix has broken something else in YOUR code base, and you have to ensure that’s fixed before any customer gets the game home and has a bad experience.
People work long hours. They don’t get to to have dinner with their families or kiss their children goodnight before they go to bed. They say goodnight via a Skype or Facetime call. I’ve had to do this.
Console transitions are rough. And now that I’ve told you all how harrowing it is, maybe everyone will have a little more respect for what was accomplished here. I’m not going to reveal where I work or what I work on, but we delivered something of high calibre for the console launches. And drawing from that experience, I can tell you with confidence that what was delivered on the disc of FM5 is very impressive. I’m shocked there was as much content as there is at this level of quality. I don’t know how they did it. Thinking about trying to pull that off scares the hell out of me.
So yeah… understand that what they did is a massive feat. And now that FM5 is out in the world, they’ll be able to take all this content forward to FM6. They’ll have to tweak the FM5 cars and tracks a bit to make them work in FM6, sure, but the effort will be much smaller, which means they can focus on building NEW cars and NEW tracks (either new or bringing back beloved old cars and tracks we miss). And the hardware they’re targeting will be fixed. No more pulling their hair out worrying about all the changes, the Xbox One is the Xbox One and they can trust it to be a stable target.
These guys rocked it. I’ve played about a dozen games each on the Xbox One and PS4 since both machines launched, and FM5 is one of the highest quality next-gen experiences available. I’d buy them all a beer if I could. I’ll settle for buying the few of them I know a round the next time I’m in Seattle.
I am pretty much indifferent to blaming anyone. I do think there is value is knowing the consumer’s displeasure. It’s not all bashing and flaming.
I do get the part about the long hours and commitment these teams make. I have similar demands in my job and have always felt the personal attacks are out of place. You gotta respect anyone who is willing to work hard for a living.
Having said that I did hear that Dan is the guy Chuck Norris calls for back up…so, I suspect he is a “bring it on” kinda guy, rather than an “ease up” type.