Race regulations will be the fall of the FORZA franchise
What use are rules and regulations when right now the only hopper with these regulations is being trolled by four idiots driving formation for all the laps?
You don’t ghost backmarkers, we can’t kick them. It’s a virtual,playground for trolls and griefers.w
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Did a couple of races… My initial impressions:
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The system is pretty good at whether you gained an advantage or not from going off-track. If it takes a long time for you to rejoin, no penalties occur.
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People weren’t constantly extending or intentionally cutting corners in the lobbies I was in. Should be noted these lobbies were pretty small (6 - 10 cars)
-Track limits need to be re-adjusted. I get penalties for touching the curb at some corners and the penalties are always inconsistent. I can touch a curb and get a 2-second penalty and the next lap I touch it the same way and get a 5-second penalty.
-Run-off is now unusable. Some tracks have areas for runoff as they anticipate cars going wide slightly, however you cannot use them in FM7 as you’ll get penalized. This is a big issue at tracks like Watkins Glen, Hockenheim, Road America, Road Atlanta, and more. I’m all for penalizing people going extremely wide past the runoff but staying ON the runoff shouldn’t result in a penalty. Something like this would result in a penalty:
- Replays from Race Regulation lobbies are unviewable, resulting in “Invalid Data” error.
-I’m not a big fan of how the HUD alternates from distance to penalties, I feel like distance should be fixed 100%. Just add a penalty logo next to that user (Like in GT Sport)
What I’d like to see in the future from Race Regulations:
-Reworked track limits so we can use curbs and runoff (to an extent)
-Penalties for avoidable contact (intent rams, pushing people off, etc). Give lenience to small bumps and taps though
-Implementation of RR in every lobby and outside of multiplayer (Forza Driver’s Cup, Free Play)
-Consistency in penalties
-Lenience in tiny cuts and extensions. I’ve gotten 5-second penalties for some of the smallest cuts ever only because I was next to a player
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Yeah something needs to be done about massive cutters who cause everyone else to DNF. On a version of VIR dude lapped every single person and nobody else finished.
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Can we have this added to a class hopper, so that we can test how different builds on the same car are impacted by the same cut.
Also, would beinteresting to know the definition of “advantage” e.g. someone could still cut, but be slower than the fastest clean lap time in the lobby. How would you calculate the advantage in that instance.
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It’s a mixed bag so far but a HUGE leap in the correct direction. Here’s my thoughts:
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There is a problem with some drivers cutting the course so much that they cause others to DNF. This is an easy fix. Anyone above 20 seconds of time penalties should be disqualified imo. Another alternative is anyone above 20 seconds should get a drive through penalty. That would put them further down through the pack so there would be no DNF’s. An extra 30 seconds on the end time counter could also help a lot.
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The game needs to make track extending less punishing then corner cutting. That’s the main inconsistency with the Race Regulations so far. You will get just as big a time penalty for cutting a course than extending which makes no sense. If it was slightly more lenient on extending, people getting pushed wide wouldn’t be effected as much. It’d also just be more consistent in general. Maybe implement a system where it knows what part of the track you have impeded the limits at & then calculate just half a normal penalty for extending compared to cutting.
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So far I’ve seen that penalties only go up in a minimum of second increments. I don’t think this is the best idea. I think they should go up in 0.5 second intervals. So say I just run over the curb, give me a 0.5 second penalty. I think that’s fair.
So for the TLDR:
- Players should be DNF’d above a certain total penalty time.
- Increase the end of race timer, maybe by 30 seconds.
- More leniency on track extending compared to track cutting.
- Drive through penalties to stop people getting a DNF.
- Penalties should go up in 0.5 second intervals not 1 second intervals.
Though I will say, thank you & good job Turn 10. It’s a big leap in the correct trajectory for the franchise. And thank you for making this a one hopper Beta & not rolling it out to the entire hopper & league selection just yet.
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penalty system is a joke.
https://xboxclips.com/M3NAC3%20360/0afdca58-1070-4985-b50f-915eb8f37694
https://xboxclips.com/M3NAC3%20360/1213ffe2-588d-41e6-8098-b140231667a7
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If that was a ramming attempt by you in the last clip, I have no problems with the penalty 
But in all seriousness, this is a problem. It does need to be fixed. Hopefully when the penalties for ramming comes into play, it can detect collisions that force you off track & negate the penalty.
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Lol. Nah it wasn’t a ram attempt. I thought i was doing the GP circuit still. Forgot it changes there.
First of all I want to say I’m very happy with the introduction of this system, however there are some slight problems with it. These are the main ons for me:
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I feel the penalties are too strict ar the moment. When racing wheel to wheel you’re bound to cross the white line slightly at times. Receiving a 1-2 second penalty for this doesn’t promote racing. So I would suggest making the penalties slightly less strict. And allowing people to cross the white line while keeping two wheels on the curb/astro turf before receiving a penalty.
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You get penalties for being hit of track, this just shouldn’t happen.
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At this stage, with the removed tire walls, I don’t believe this should be implemented in all hoppers. Rammers and griefers will have a field day. These people don’t care about the 19 second penalty they get for straightlining a corner, or even about finishing the race all. So here are a few suggestions to work around this:
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Ghost backmarkers, when they go a lap down they can’t do anything anymore.
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If you’re making a cut that’ll result in a 5+ second penalty you’ll be ghosted for 10 seconds, even before returning back to the track. This way they can’t skip 3 corners to ram someone at 200 mph. You could even program this seperately. As in: if you enter a specified zone (let’s say the run off at T1 Monza) your car will be ghosted for a given amount of time as well to prevent you being able to hit others.
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I like the idea of the Regulations, but feel the punishment should be (or similar to) a slow down. Either the game automatically slows you down or you are given a timer to slow down before more punishment is handed out. I believe Assetto Corsa or some other game has this, but would have to be carefully implemented as far as ppl going wide after a turn, versus someone cutting a corner before the turn. Adjustments to position changing and such but feel it would create a level playing field for those who are still cutting corners like crazy, and still winning or getting podium with their accumulated penalties. Causing the player to actually slow down would allow for proper position changes and would frustrate the cheaters enough to change hoppers or drive correctly.
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This is only the beginning, proper positioning with the full adjudication will be added in the coming months. I suggest you go back and read the second post at the start of this thread which includes:
“After the race is over, you will see the event results screen showing your race time, number of penalties applied, penalty time accrued, and the total of race time and penalty time. The placement in the event results screen will be affected by the penalty time. Currently, neither rewards nor the following race’s grid placements are affected by incurred FRR penalties. These features will be coming in a future iteration of FRR.”
[Mod Edit - please keep feedback on topic as described in the first two posts - MM]
I haven’t tested all tracks to give a solid opinion on the time penalties, but from what I’ve seen on Laguna Seca and Silverstone it’s fine.
Although I still have a problem with the track limits of the last chicane on Prague. We were used to go full speed on that particular corner and now with the track limits (plus the time penalty) I think it ruins the flow of the track.
I was asked to share my suggestions here for the grievers’ penalties, so:
- the strength of a collision + the number of collisions should define the status of “griefer”
- if a player repeatedly and intentionally pushes another player, he should get ghosted and slowed down for the entire duration of the race, or even for his whole permanence in the lobby.
(After all I don’t think that someone who intentionally wrecks others would want to, or should even be allowed to, catch up and race clean) - a strong collision, without brakes applied, should immediately penalize the player with a time penalty + speed penalty + ghosting (to prevent other collisions). Repeated violations would kick the player out of the lobby and assign him a bad behavior mark (see the reputation system below)
- for the classic first corner madness, or a chain reaction at any corner, only the first player causing the chain reaction should be penalized
- I’d like to see a reputation system based on the behavior on track. That will help matchmaking. Good players in lobbies with good players, bad with bad. Your reputation may improve if you play by the rules and you might be able to join better lobbies.
AerisHime said ghosting for backmarkers will come in the future so that’s good news!
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delete
I think the system right now relies to heavily on whether or not you passed an opponent in determining the severity of your penalty. I can think of an example i had at Laguna Seca where 2 of us were side by side entering a corner and while exiting I was slightly ahead but ran wide and ended up with 2 wheels in the sand. So the system sees that as me extending the track and taking a position and hands me a 4 second penalty, when in reality my exit has been totally compromised and that position is immediately lost.
There is a pretty extreme example where I get a 6 second penalty for a minor cut. Which I guess the system assumed that I passed a guy before going off track so I must have got a major advantage when leaving the track even though the guy I passed went flying off the track on his own lol. Me passing him had nothing to do with me cutting the track but I feel like I was given a very harsh penalty because of it.
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- you can’t test the penatly system right cause of people wrecking you worse than anything i’ve ever been in.
1.b. you’ve either got to make the hopper ghosted or have the option to try the race regs in a private hopper.
- the penatly for JUST going wide on a corner is to harsh. There is a difference between fully cutting it and just slightly going wide.
2.b. yous need to exstend the track limits a good bit or lower the time penatly for slightly going over.
2.c. The fact that you get a penatly between two and seven seconds for just slightly got off a track is far to much. The amount of time I’ve done it and each time i’ve not gained a position or gained timed through it and had a harsh penatly cause of it is a joke.
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There needs to be a max of penatlies before you get DNFed and/or kicked because someone can cut that much of the track and finish that far ahead where they can still win cause of the rest of the field not finishing.
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You getting the penatly for when someone else hits / punts you off is harsh. there needs to be a safty rating like iRacing , PC2 and GT Sport has where you need to race clean to get a better rating. this would mean people would get better races for racing clean and wouldn’t need to deal with rammers in ever race.
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Start if race timer. needs to be two minutes in the Forza GT and a few other hoppers as well. and the end of race timer needs put up to two and a half minutes.
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The vote to kick needs to work and not only for marshalls. it should pop up like it did on Forza Motorsport 4 and if the person gets kicked they CAN’T join the hopper for 10 minutes or something.
will be adding more to this cause I’ve only done 15 races or so and be only able to finish 5 of them cause of the amount of wrecking happeneding in this hopper
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I don’t seem to recall ever receiving a penalty not on an even second mark. No 0.5 or 0.75 second penalties, all are just whole seconds, which seems somewhat excessive when the “advantage” you may have gained is in the 0.005 range.
Like most people I think that the penalties for brief errors are way to large, you can just dip a wheel off track and gain a full second penalty for it, which really ruins the aspect of racing someone for a position, an action where mistakes are most likely to be made, and is definitely different from a true cut or extension.
I think it would be beneficial to show gap time instead of distance during the race. Distance does not tell you if the person behind you is within your penalty time or not, so it becomes hard to tell if you are beating them or if they will actually beat you. This is my largest concern regarding these regulations. I’m willing to accept that the penalty system will never be perfect in all scenarios, but unless we as racers have someway to judge the status of the race it will not be enjoyable.
For the DNF issues with the race-end countdown, perhaps it could delay the start of the countdown by the accumulated penalty.
So if the first person crosses the line with 20s time penalty, then the game could wait 20s before starting the countdown.
Subsequent finishers would override this delay if appropriate, e.g. if person crossing 5 seconds later has 10s penalty then the remaining 15s of the original 20s delay in progress would get overridden with the new 10s delay taking over.
Also, I wonder if the updated tracks with removed barriers could be added to Rivals? More opportunity to test for environment issues (textures or weird physics glitches or whatever) and it wouldn’t affect the leaderboards because of dirty laps.
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Thanks for putting this out to the public to get some opinions before stamping it completed. I hope you can make the changes quickly and efficiently in order to wrap this up and move on. Thanks for attempting to implement something into the game that helps make the game feel more “real” and challenging and fun. If you don’t want suggestions - don’t worry about them and skip.
On to the feedback: Penalties should primarily be put in place to allow everyone to race on a fair and even playing field. Penalties should not have any loopholes that can be exploited so I will start this off by saying:
NEEDS TO HAPPEN: Penalty Enforcement - This needs to be implemented in some way for future penalty expansions as well as the current iteration: There must be a maximum amount of penalty time that can be accrued. There must be a penalty price paid for reaching that maximum penalty amount. I touch on some suggestions to that below. However this must be implemented as a fundamental way to prevent exploitation as best as possible.
Feedback/Suggestions:
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Time Penalties - NEEDS ATT. - The amount of time for penalties really needs to be in .25 sec increments or .50. - This allows for linearity/granularity in offense recieved.
SUGGESTION: I would say that when these add up to 2.5 seconds you must do a stop and go next lap, 5 seconds another stop and go - 10 seconds dq to lobby. If you miss any of your stop and go you will be dq and returned to lobby. If that is not feasible then once they add up to 10 seconds you are simply disqualified to the lobby. If you go to the lobby and wait for the next race in that lobby (even if you leave and rejoin the same lobby) on the next race you will be starting at the back of the field with a 20 second start penalty where you do not get to go until the race time has elapsed by 20 seconds. I feel this is the best way to really manage exploitation of penalties while also making sure they are felt by the driver. -
Track Penalties - NEEDS ATT. - Passing cars - Penalties should not be given to a car/driver that is outside the track boundaries when passing a car/driver that is under 30mph and/or not facing the direction they should be going.
EXAMPLE: - crash in front of you occurs you dodge off track to avoid it and pass in the grass - you should not get a penalty for this - HOWEVER if you wanted to get super detailed I would add that the car/driver that is avoiding the crash and is now off track should not be FULL THROTTLE through the grass - I would say if they are still full throttle through the grass and their lap time for whatever reason is quicker or they gained on the person in front of the crash while off track avoiding the crash they should incur the normal off track time penalty but NOT be penalized for the cars/drivers they passed while doing so. -
Track Boundaries - SUGGESTION: FIA states that 4 wheels over the white line on the track is a penalty - I’m sure you guys at T10 have read some/talked to some actual people to understand the real world racing rules so that is a no-brainer at this point. Now - what really happens in real life vs what happens with the FIA rules as an example, is typically completely different, or can be at times. While following the FIA rules I don’t have a huge issue with the track boundaries, HOWEVER, as a suggestion to you guys, I can say that you might want to offer 2 levels of track boundaries that are select-able. Fixed and Loose - Loose would allow the use of the various track out / track extension locations without a penalty, making the track boundary approx 1 car width from the normal track boundary on those locations. I personally would like to run those in leagues in the various conditions as it would give the feeling and options avail, that the track marshals one season would allow it, and the track marshals another season wouldn’t. This could essentially allow leagues to run the same track with different track rules so to speak. I don’t know if this is critical for release - but I do think it is important. Don’t let this hold you back from releasing FRR however. I am obviously not the BOSS of turn 10.
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Time Penalties - SUGGESTION: These Penalties at the moment do not appear to the user after the race or during the race in a way that it makes logical sense. “why was I penalized and how was that time applied” It would be good to provide a race summary where penalties occurred for the driver. After the race the penalties would say “T2 cut corner advanced position by .044 seconds and gained advantage and position 3rd offense 2 second penalty applied” This would cut down on the “why did that happen” and provide a good way to review what happened and why. I say this as I suppose the game already knows why and it is as simple as putting it on a grid after the race for a user to review - I don’t think you need to spend a decade on doing this - just a suggestion if simple and can be done in one day.
I do have to say - I do not think ALL of the multiplayer hoppers should have the FRR - I feel these new penalties, upon final release, should go to a group of hoppers that are identified as having FRR. As an example “S class with FRR” I don’t think the other hoppers currently, in their current state, should be removed or altered. That is my opinion only.
I’m sure I missed some things but hopefully i’ve added to the feedback for the FRR, and just to remain true to myself I’ll go off-topic and say Drafting is not functioning and that is a shame I hope that is so far up on the list that it is crawling off the paper/monitor because that is truly a fundamental of how lively a game feels when racing as well as plays into so much strategy and just pure real world car feel. Much like you have done with the FFB and FRR - I hope you can quickly get the ball rolling on that for some community testing as well.
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