Corner cutting

Problem is this time it’s more than just Yas, which I generally just use to get a good starting position in the next race. I never cut, it would be an empty victory for me. I guess it is easier to cut in these cars for some reason. I know nothing will be done, just annoyed at the stupidity of it.

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I respect your commitment to clean racing. I too refuse to corner cut. I hope they implement some of the suggested measures for corner cutters and griefers for FM7. I might actually be well enough to compete again by then.

The trouble with Yas is, with so many idiots cutting and such a wide range of abilities in hoppers, it’s very difficult to get enough clean air to run a clean lap.

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There are several resources and videos online that show why corner cutting is not only bad, but unsafe to other drivers. If Turn 10 wanted to fix this rather than implementing something worse like sticky grass or the 10 second penalty, they should have the warning system or a flag system. You cut once and it could of been a mistake or something you get a message on your screen (first warning). Then you cut again you, you are black flagged and have to make a stop and go. A flag or warning system could greatly improve the quality of online life. Plus it would make Forza more sim like which is the ultimate goal of what they are going for. Because sticky grass made track re-entry more difficult when you made a mistake and would cause more wrecks then it would prevent.

In terms of ramming and or sticky grass though, there are times in which I have seen drivers forced into cutting or track extending because the lead driver didn’t respect their line. Im just saying don’t be quick to judge. It’s not worth losing points over if you are in league and wrecking people affects your TruSkill rating.

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I like your idea of using a flag system, as it kind of protects the driver who gets bumped off the track due to aggressive racing. I like the idea of them passing through the pits for a black flag too, because it’s a severe penalty, BUT, I’m afraid there are some drivers who would take the black flag as a reason to wreck the other drivers.

Perhaps a system that warns you when you first cut, but doesn’t tell you when you cut the second time, but instead disqualifies you or adds 12-18 seconds to your time would be more effective. That way the risk would be too great.

There are so many things to consider. I hope the folks at Turn 10 are really brainstorming these race issues.

Not all of us paid over 140 to be push overs in this game. I did the non-retaliation method for years and it does not make one iota of a difference, so enough is enough. If some mouth breather is getting his kicks by hitting me anf other people off then he is going to get a taste of his own medicine.

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A question. Could Horizon be teaching players that Cutting is OK? In order to 3 star most Speed Zones you have to find the shortest distance between the 2 points. These very forums are full of advice on how to “cut” that route to attain the 3rd star. I, personally, hate cutters and as such don’t get 3 stars in Horizon either. Just a thought.

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Cutting does not really exist in H3. As long as you hit the checkpoints you can do whatever to get to it in my opinion. It doesn’t even tell you if you dirty a lap unless you are in rivals. You are not on race tracks so really there are no limits other than checkpoints. Remember it is an arcade racer and shortcuts are generally part of that. That’s fine but people do not realize that is not a part of Forza Motorsport. That being said I think people who had only played H2 bought Forza 6 thinking it was something similar and play it like it is Horizon. There was wrecking and cutting in the past but it became far worse in Forza 6. In the next Motorsport there should be some explanation of proper racing etiquette and penalties for cutting to discourage people from doing it.

Anybody ever play the RUSH games in an arcade or on a Nintendo 64? There were shortcuts in those of course, it was an arcade racer. But the punishment for being a bone head was an exploding car and then a respawn at low speeds five seconds later. Maybe that is what we should have.

Don’t bring back the sticky grass just fill the shortcuts with land mines. Maybe you’ll make it through, but probably not. And these mines can be strategically placed so that accidental track extending doesn’t trip one.

Hockenhering would be particularly enjoyable to watch a corner cutters car explode when he runs wide on turn 1 to keep his speed up.

Or if we were being more politically correct just lay out some spike strips, take out a tire or two, then have the player limp back to the pits to get his tires changed. Instant drive through penalty that is unavoidable. You drove a race car in dirt for long enough IRL and you will lose a tire, that’s a fact. So it’s not completely unrealistic. And as an added bonus we would get tire blowouts modeled into the game which would be super awesome.

I think Yas should be covered in oil slicks in all the overruns

Maybe, IF Turn 19 could figure it out, an off track excursion, not preceded by a collision event, results in instant DNF. This could be triggered in all the known Cutting areas but nowhere else. That way most accidental off track excursions wouldn’t trigger it.

I have been playing some Forza 5 lately and forgot how annoying the Sticky Grass can be when the insane Drivetars punt you out there.

So if you miss your braking point you will be DQF instantly? A bit harsh dont you think? And dont you think that some of the cornercutters will bump into other players so that they can cut the next corner?

Reading comprehension is good. Will that penalize someone that wasn’t intentionally cutting? It could happen but was the same result in the previous games with sticky grass. Your second scenario was covered by the “not preceeded by a collision event”.

So you rather be DQF then to have to loose a couple of seconds getting out of the sticky grass area at some parts of the track. And for the second part: Im sure some players will bump or crash into other players so they can cut the next corner (marked as a cutting area) without being punished because the game will see it as a “racing accident”.

I am not going to argue with you. You have your opinion and I have mine. But yes, I would rather have a DNF (I have no idea what a DQF is) if it means getting a handle on Corner Cutting. The extra time spent getting out of the “sticky stuff” means you are not going to win anyway in the short Forza races anyway.

Lol what. This is a horrible idea. I would rather have a 5 sec penalty( sticky grass), than completely be DNF. I won a lot of races getting put into the sticky grass.
Also image how much misery a troll/badsport could cause.

Instead of truskill which is simply beating a person ranked higher then you it could weight how well you do against opponents and collision rating. The game already tracks major and minor collisions of player so you could use that to determine a rating.

So now you could have lobbies based on lack of collisions and hopefully with track limits tracker that as well

For the track limits T10 has got some work to do defining those in the game and I’m sure that could also be a trackable stat.

In H3 they have a number average number of Collisions stat and a clean start, clean skills stat. Utilize these rankings and make clean lobbies. Not just how fast you can drive or finishing position against rank players.

Racing license would be nice as well higher level lobbies require them to be completed. And open license races/ lobbies don’t needs it. Kind of thing.

Onus is on the developer. Otherwise we just need to stick to private lobbies under current system and or user created public lobbies where a host can enforce lobbies priorities as well.

Higher rewards for th “clean (professional) public lobbies” So there would be reason to want to be in them fostering a shift in culture and attitude among the middle ground of racing community.

Games and open level for anyone and crashes wreckers and clean lobbies for those that want those.

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Man… There’s been a lot of talk of very disruptive and dangerous measures to be taken against corner cutters, here… Land mines, spike strips, oil slicks… Even being DNF’ed(did not finish)/DQ’ed(Disqualified)… And all of these would catch those who make simple mistakes, just as much as they would corner cutters.

Why do we not just get hit with a time penalty, for avoidable contact, going off track?

Drivers during a race don’t HAVE to be penalized directly; take away the slow-dirt, the stop-grass, get rid of those add-on tire barriers just inside the apex of the turn; let the corner cutter think he’s getting somewhere fast…he might pass the finish line first, as far as track position, but when the race results come up, BAM, he’s been smacked with a huge time penalty after timing and scoring, that takes away his first-place finish and sticks him down in ninth, behind those drivers who made all clean laps and very few mistakes!

We don’t have to break up the momentum of a race, to have justice done; we don’t even have to have stop-and-go penalties, or drive-through penalties, though I’m not opposed to those measures, either.

Worse, still, we don’t have to punish the innocent for simple mistakes so heavily; you miss your braking point, you go a little off track, you get a small time penalty—you don’t slam in to a tire wall and get bounced back out into the track with a crippled car and get plowed by the rest of the field, bounced about through the field like a pinball…you don’t spin out of control and turn a small mistake into a burning wreck against a wall…you don’t get arbitrarily blown up…you don’t get all four tires put down and suffer whatever that may result in…none of that. You get a small penalty, for making a small mistake. And the corner-cutter who zips through the dirt and grass on every corner, every lap, gets a massive cumulative penalty—one that takes away his finishing position and sticks him all the way down at the back of the pack…

Simple time penalties will suffice, I think…

Add to that, more correct/obvious track limits. Yas Marina is tough to get a clean lap on, regardless of whether you’re with others or not. Some of the apexes, the clean /not-clean limits aren’t clear, or maybe even aren’t consistent. Some of the other tracks have the same issue; “what is clean and what is not?”

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I was being more sarcastic with the land mines but I firmly believe that time penalties are not enough. It’s pretty similar to privileged kids getting lighter sentences for crimes IRL. Technically they still got punished but they also feel emboldened to repeat the offense because the punishment is negligible. Time penalties don’t stop a player from physically crossing the line first and forcing disruptive players to start in the back after they won by cheating will make them cheat harder.

I did not study psychology and do not have advanced knowledge in the field but from my experiences both online and in the real world, slap on the wrist style punishment is called a slap on the wrist for a reason. If the punishment for an offense is so minor it isn’t noticed it won’t be remembered and it won’t factor into that person’s judgement in the future.

IRL if you run off the track even if the run off is paved it will be covered in tire debris and the asphalt will be less grippy. If it’s grass it will be super slippery and coat your tires which reduces grip for the next few turns while also allowing tires to cool which reduces grip. If it’s sand it’s designed to stop the car completely and keep it there until it’s towed out.

Replicate that experience in Forza and you have a solution to corner cutting. Loss of grip and the potential for a blowout whenever cars leave the track is REALISTIC and is a major reason why real world race car drivers try to stay on the track.

This addresses corner cutting, not wrecking. Obviously wreckers require another set of guidelines and regulations to discourage but that is manageable too. Stewards inquiries, black and yellow flags, longer races with sim damage, ghosting players who are too far behind to finish the race, tracking at fault contact statistics per race and displaying it in the profile, engaging auto brake after an at fault accident are all concepts that address wreckers with some degree of realism minus ghosting.

But time penalties are not and never will be enough to deter a player who wants to cheat from cheating. They clearly aren’t going for a clean lap and don’t care about lap times anyway. And forcing them to start in the back will just complicate the turn 1 pile up that happens in every race when they won’t use their brakes.

How’s this for an idea? If you are consistently cutting corners and the game figures out a way to track it once you pass a certain threshold you can no longer use tuned cars in the lobby and must race in stock cars. Until you’ve proven you can drive cleanly you are relegated to finish at the back. This will solve the issue in 90% of the online environment. Combine that with a perpetual ghost state if you fall beyond the 45 sec threshold and you will hopefully have enough rules in place to not ruin the race for the cheater completely but also ensure that even with short cuts they could not win. It could be the “dunce” car.

Simplify everything you said to “ghost state for cheating/cutting/abusive behavior” and I’ll agree 100% with you. Hitting people with “you can only use stock vehicles now” sounds a bit much, to me. I get that you were joking some about the landmines, etc. It’s cool. And I agree that time penalties, alone, aren’t sufficient. I shouldn’t have said it quite like that, before. There would need to be more included, in a real fix.

I fully agree with you that privileged kids in reality ought not get off lightly. If they did the crime, they should do the time. There should be no slap on the wrist for murder, etc. But, at the same time, I’m not of the opinion that just because someone cuts a corner regularly, I should be subjected to a tire wall that ruins my race if I even just barely misjudge my turn-in.

I’m not lobbying for no impact on driving for going off-track, when I say forget the slow-grass/stop-dirt/whatever. By all means, tire condition (cleanliness) and influence from going off track, and even marbles ON TRACK should be modeled, fully and correctly!

But, making someone lose all grip and go spinning out, in some cases, would put drivers on the other side of the corner at risk or undue harm! Take, for example, a chicane; the track comes straight along, suddenly has a hard right, a hard left, a hard left, a hard right, and back on to the straight. If, between the ends of the chicane, there is no obstacle, someone who makes a simple mistake and misses their braking point can simply breeze through, and then can be hit with an illegal overtake/other penalty and be told to slow down, and if they don’t comply, they’re disqualified. If there is an effect that amounts to an oil slick, however, they suddenly lose control and end up turned around backwards with a stalled vehicle on the racing line at the other end of the chicane—and they get plowed into and bounced around by the rest of the field as the rest of the field struggles to remain on-track and on-line. Or, better yet, I could’ve fallen back on my example with the tire walls right at the apex…

You’re right that time penalties won’t keep someone from crossing the line first—and why should it? With proper timing and scoring, it doesn’t really matter who crosses the line first; what matters is the official’s views of the final finishing order, the ACTUAL race results. You ever heard about what Ford did at Le Mans? The GT40 ‘photo opportunity’ finish? The bit about how the guy in the lead in terms of position on track didn’t actually win? It’s not too dissimilar to that. Let the corner cutter think he took first. Let him brag that he was actually the one out front. He amassed a huge time penalty, so he’s actually last; you know it, the guy who finished second knows it, the guy who actually crossed the line last knows it. The corner cutter gets f’ed proper, as he should.

Aside from that, you’re right; there’s nothing anybody can do to keep cheaters from cheating, ultimately. It’s just how people are. Just like a government can’t really do anything to prevent murder, or other crime; if somebody wants to commit a crime, they will. All anyone can do, for cheaters or criminals, is try to minimize how much it happens, and punish it accordingly when they can. And, personally, in a video game about racing, I think time penalties are a big part of achieving punishment without hitting the innocent too hard.

As for black and yellow flags, I’m all for it. Make drive-through and stop-and-go penalties, and illegal overtake “you’d-better-give-that-guy-his-spot-back,-right-this-instant” penalties, in addition to the simple cumulative time penalties… Bring in good F1-game style flags and penalties and make it work properly, and I’d love it.

I love fuel and tire consumption, sim damage (FM6 sim damage is laughable, by the way—it was far better in FM2, 3, 4…), and long races. I think you and I would make beautiful laps together. I’m joking, “no homo”, but I think we really would get along pretty well. Regardless of whether we agree 100% about everything or not.