Clutch + Throttle design problem for FM6

I recently purchased Forza 6 and i’m loving the game except for one major issue, which in my opinion is a design flaw with the game.

I prefer to use a manual setup without clutch when I play, which i know has it’s obvious drawbacks, but when browsing leaderboards while trying to compete with lap times and watching replays I see that people who use the clutch are able to abuse the clutch system by never releasing the throttle during clutching which enables them to almost completely bypass the momentary loss of momentum that should be associated with shifting gears. The momentum loss is apparent in an automatic or manual setup as you lose 1-2 mph every time you shift gears and while carefully watching telemetry info you can see that clutch users do not. Being able to abuse the clutch in this fashion makes people who do not use clutch completely alienated from any chance of leaderboard competition as the lack of shift momentum loss translates into full seconds of lap time that are impossible to reach regardless of tuning or track mastery.

I expect clutch to be faster because of precision shifting and the other benefits an engaged clutch bring but I do not expect a gearbox to accept a shift in gears with full throttle during a shift nor do I expect a clutch to create such an advantage because of that, that people who do not use it cannot be remotely competitive.

It is very unrealistic and completely kills what used to be my favorite part of Forza. I propose for Forza 7 at least adding some sort of penalty to make clutch users actually properly shift gears or a change in design that eliminates the benefits abusing this brings. Otherwise people are forced to do something completely unrealistic to compete at the highest level.

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You’re absolutely right. Never liked this clutch system since Forza 4. Weirdly using the clutch also has its drawbacks in 6. Some cars, for example, some of the Lemans Prototypes have launching issues using the clutch. Last time I checked the Peugeot 908 stalled at the start, no matter which high revs I used.

I never thought about this but seeing that I’m a manual w/o clutch user like you I think it is also unfair to those of us who don’t use a clutch. For what ever reason. (Please folks don’t jump on me for not using it.) I have my reasons.

I’m not that well acquainted when it comes to drivetrain technology, but isn’t that how it works with real life cars. I’ve got a BMW X4 with a 8 speed automatic steptronic transmission which also allows me to go manual with the paddle shifters on the steering wheel or with the gear shifter. So when changing gears manually on the shifters, I don’t release the throttle and at the same time the clutch is controlled by a solenoid valve while engine speed is matched to the clutch plate. So, does the same or equal principle not apply to most modern cars in FM6 and allows them to shift manually with clutch without releasing the throttle ? As previously stated, I’m not that well acquainted on this so I’m asking too, so it will be good to hear some expert opinions on this before I make any conclusions or remarks.

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Just because the car technology does the shifting for you does not mean it works completely different. You don’t need a fancy heavyweight BMW for that. With a normal automatic transmission from the 60s you can also kick down the gaspedal without releasing and it will still change gears, because it does automatically what some people are too lazy and unable for. Ever tried a normal manual gearbox? To shift up or down you release the gas pedal, hit the clutch and change the gear. You could stay on the gas pedal while doing so, but it will wear down your transmission in no time.

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Thanks for your insight, but I’m well aware of how manual and automatic transmission is operated and you slightly off point… The OP questions the fact that when driving manual with clutch, the throttle is not released by some players in FM6. So I tried to say that it is well possible in real life with certain types of transmissions when gearing manually, but might not be common practice with all types.

PS Automatic transmission got nothing to do with lazy, we call it advanced technology. I wont fly to New York in an air balloon if I can do it in a Boeiing or other jetliner.

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In America cautiously estimated over 95 % of the people aren’t able to operate manual gearbox. It’s the American way to drive automatic, since it was invented. Make things easy. No disrespect, but it’s no secret that the American way is sometimes the easy and lazy way: You know, cars have to have huge gaps - it’s the easy way. Not long ago suspensions for sports cars had to be the same like the ones for trucks - it’s the easy way.
However the rest of the world still drives manual. Why? Well, in general manual always used to be better for MPGs and is also still mainly used in racing, since it gives full controll to the driver.
Automatic is not really that advanced unless it’s German technology, which enables perfect shifting and nowadays may as well save some gas. But it’s easy and no skills are accquired, so it’s nothing for race drivers.

Your “manual” mode has nothing to do with a manual transmission. You have a car with an automatic transmission. You don’t have a clutch. You have a torque-converter. It’s just that your automatic transmission has a operational mode which lets you choose which gear to use at a certain time. But this is in no way manual transmission.
Manual transmission means three pedals and a proper stick with 1-2-3-4-5-6 written on it in H-pattern.

I just came to support everybody who thinks the assist penalty in this game is way overdone. There are real-life cars with perfect dual-clutch transmissions - like Nissan GT-R, Ferrari California T and 458, and so on. These cars would only be slower if somebody decides to put a manual transmission in them. I understand that manual shifting should be rewarded in some way, but first of all it’s overdone, and second of all, the manual w/ clutch rewarding versus just manual is downright berserk, not to mention completely unrealistic, considering modern super and hyper cars.
If you ask me there shouldn’t be any penalties for using automatic. Let me explain. Manual drivers have an advantage of choosing the correct gear for each turn. If the shifting point is the same for both transmissions, manual driver will always have a small advantage anyway, so there’s no need to punish the auto driver. And another thing - when driving manual, the user can use “engine braking” which in some cases (Alfa 33) does a huge impact on the car stopping distance. So there you go, again manual gives you advantage. No need to punish auto drivers any more than that.

IRL you would be right. Hower ever this a game.

It’s likely a game design decision as much as anything. T10’s Assists system tries to reward drivers for driving with fewer aids, so Auto is slowest, Manual next and Manual w/clutch fastest, even where that’s not actually realistic, and letting people keep the throttle mashed when changing w/clutch is an easy way to achieve that. And for clutch to be done right it would probably need to be on an analogue trigger, and there aren’t any available.

Is this a real thread? Just start using the clutch. Make the clutch the A button and hit A and B or A and X at the same time to shift. If u dont want to thats ur choice (unless its a disability).

The point is that it is unrealistic, although I don’t get too hung up about it as much of the game is unrealistic.

The clutch in the game isn’t a clutch at all, it is a button to press at the same time as making a gear change otherwise you would need to lift off like the OP says… Personally I go for a bit more immersion and only use the clutch if the car really has one and even then I don’t use it if I have upgraded to a sport or race transmission.

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Its indeed unrealistic but the game at heart is a controller game, not a wheel game. Like someone said in another thread, everything about Forza that has to do with racing wheels is An afterthought and it’s true.

Controllers can barely oversteer, all you have to do is turn the analogue stick completely left or right. The actual radius your car makes in turns isn’t dependant on how far you move your analoog stick in turns but instead depends about your speed. You actualy make a turn with your gas and Brake pedals, not your analogue stick. Wheel users have it far more difficult since there it works more like in reality and you can in fact oversteer very easy.

I guess that major difference and Turn 10’s obvious controller-favored approach makes the Forza franchise a very poor game for some good wheels and pedal action.

If you want a good wheel / pedals / force feedback experience then Project Cars is far better. And I have really high hopes for Assetta Corsa as well, the PC version of it has even better handling than Project Cars. Coming in 2016 to the XBox One. Depending on how bad Turn 10 screws up here (lack of proper wheel support, unicorn car nonsense, bad communication to the community) I will move over there. And then there is always the possibility to move back to PS as well depending on how good GT Sport will receive reviews.

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Is this your real answer? It’s not our alleged unability to press an extra button. It’s about the unfair advantage for doing something unrealistic which would wear down your real life transmission in no time. Also there is a stalling problem with some cars, because the clutch system is not only unrealistic, but also bugged.

I personally don’t do it but it’s not unrealistic. It’s used in real life, mostly drag racing and is called flat shifting.

Shamelessly quoted from Google “Powershifting, also known as full-throttle shifting or flat-shifting, (not to be confused with speed-shifting) is a method of shifting used with manual transmissions to reduce the time where the driving wheels are not powered”

If you cant beat them join them.

Ive sick of the stalling problem
Ive run the r18 without traction control and yet it still stalls which is NOT TRUE TO LIFE

I understand and appreciate the way they’ve layered assists to make you faster with fewer being used, but the manual vs manual w/clutch seems a little silly to me. It takes no real skill to use it for a decent effect. May as well not even have it as an option, mash two buttons instead of one? Okay, whatever.

Would that not be called “Power shifting” IRL? Just like another clutch abuse called “Power clutching”

I briefly let off the gas while changing gears with clutch, and always have. It doesn’t seem to hinder me at all. I have afew top 50’s and even top 20’s.

I think there is a glitch with the launch on forza6,because every car no matter what class that i have driven has failed to launch,despite trying everything that i can think of i never know if i am going to launch or get left on the grid…very annoying.If anyone has any theories on this i would appreciate any positive input,i drive with t/c being my only assist.