2013 Shelby GT500 (B600): How to drop time w/o hitting walls?

Hi,

I am pretty much a novice at this (first ever gaming unit and Forza 5) and have a question around getting better times. I tried my own tuning to practice and gain some knowledge around tuning (my 4th so far). As I started racing the 2013 Shelby GT500 (B600) I could not drop times on the Indy Oval track unless I hit the walls. Thinking it was my tune, I then proceeded to get Worms tune, as well as, LXM AJ’s tune (better at handling!). I am still hitting the walls with these as well. I was able to drop ONE second with these tunes, yet, still set at a 1:01.5. My time with my tune was a 1:02. The LB time is 54.7 sec.

I race the car primarily in 4th and downshift to 3rd at the corners. I have tried both braking (prior to downshift) as well as not braking at all and just downshifting.

**Note: With my tune I could only select (1) Tire Pressure and (2) Diff Acc/Dec. Worm’s tune has same upgrades as mine, but, AJ’s has a different upgrade setup.

Any ideas to retune and/or modify my driving technique? Thanks in advance!

Do you play with any assist ?

Yes, I use (1) Full line so I can learn the tracks and better turn around corners, (2) TCS only so the car does not slide on me, and, (3) Cosmetic. The others are OFF: Braking ABS Off, Steering SIM, and, Manual w/clutch.

Running on PRO for Drivatar Difficulty on Free Play.

That is it! Any ideas? Thanks!

I’d have to see gameplay and telemetry to give you any real advice.

How can I provide such to you? Again, I am new to this thus will need a couple of tips on the in & outs to provide the data/visuals you might need. Thanks for helping out, it’s certainly appreciated!

Well you could save a replay and upload it to the Forza TV, but we’d only be able to see your lines. Granted it could just be your lines in general which is most often the case, no offense of course. But to get telemetry, you’ll have to use the Game DVR function of the Xbox One to record some laps with some telemetry screens on, and upload those. Only problem with that is it can be a hassle, you’ll only get about 4 good laps in the recording, and you’ll have to do it multiple times because of the different telemetry screens. That’s probably the best way to tell if it’s your setup. Although if you only can tune the tire pressures and differentials, then you really only need the tire temperature pages.

Thanks K Steinwand! Yes, I have read about the fact that I can not get telemetry via the replays. I’ll try what you suggested with the DVR function. I learn another item! ANyway, any specific telemetry that I should focus on, in addition to the tire temps? Again, thanks!

Well if you’re only able to tune the pressure and differential, then the temps would be the only thing I find useful

Now I have it setup with ability to modify (1) tire pressures, (2) Diff (Acc/Dec), as well as, (3) Rear Aero and (4) ARB’s. My settings are as follow:

Tires front 37.5, Rear 33.0 psi
ARB Front 1.80, Rear 1.00
Aero Rear 225 lbs
Diff Acc 70%, Dec 20%

I still run into the same issue with the walls. I’ll record a run w/telemetry.

Thanks!

First of all that front tire pressure is insanely high. As you want the tire pressure being around 33 to 34 PSI when the tires are warm. Right now I would expect to see almost 39+ psi on your front tires when they are warmed up. In other words that cannot have too much grip. And I belief that the TCS is active in every corner cutting down your power to prevent that, just to keep it straight and still you don’t have enough grip.
-Drop the tire pressure to 31-29 psi range, and it should sort that out.

Aero profile on rear might be bit too harsh after that, as you get a lot of grip after that, Although, I might be wrong. On front, you might want to add the front aero, on it’s lowest setting just to give you that tiny bit of grip at the front.

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Thanks HLR! I was basically going by some tuning videos on YouTube regarding tire pressures and weight (front end) distribution. I did swap the assist to NO TCS similar issue. I am just uploading a couple of videos that you can check out. Again, thanks for inputs!

If you want to get as close to the top as possible you might want to try using the car that is at the top or cars very close to the top of the LB. i also see you are using no ABS when braking with no ABS you need to make sure you are not locking up the wheels but still braking as much as possible before they do. Being new to the game if you are finding this difficult you might want to try running ABS until you learn the lines. But my only other advice would be to be as neat and tidy as possible and remember every time you hit the wall the lap is uncertified.

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Thanks iHoBo! The reason for my post is that I really want to avoid hitting the wall so the lap is certified, yet, I want to be able to drop time. Thus, my dilemma. I see others with similar cars at much lower lap pace. Not sure if it’s my driving going into the corners!

Which is one reason I wanted to see a replay, to tell if it’s your line. But if your front tires are at 39 compared to 34 in the rear, that’ll deny you grip you need on entry. Also those roll bars seem pretty thin. If you’re hitting the wall on exit or the car is sliding up in the corner, you’ll want to change those. Can’t tell you what to attempt without video. And I agree with the others regarding assists.

Aight. I watched and I got a few things. First off, I think your major problem is your line. You’re going in to the corner too fast. The GT500 is a heavy car, and it’s got a lot of weight. Indianapolis doesn’t have enough banking to support the GT’s weight at that speed. So if you’re trying to leaderboard with it, you need a different build, one with actual suspension adjustments. Aside from speed, your front tire pressure is way to high for what you need, you seem to be running tight (though that was more than likely due to speed) and your camber was no where near where it needed to be for an oval. And that GT needs as much rear camber as it can get if you’re trying to get top times there. That’s just my thoughts.

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Thank you very much K Steinwand. I certainly appreciate you taking the time for this video review and provide me with some feedback. I’ll start looking at some changes and necessary adjustments.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, my tune calculations have come from some YouTube videos (my tires and ARB came from such!) put together by some gamers/tuners with actual physics equations. I also compared it against a couple of tuning calculators, though some adjustments. On this note…how many tuners actually use technical equations versus just getting a feel for what’s needed and experience?

Again, thank you very much!

OK, per the recommendation, I created another build for this car taking it from B600 to S800. Here is the baseline Forza5 setup for this build, along with the setup I am trying to tune. I am still running into the same issue with both baseline/new tune. The main problem is it understeers coming off the turn, and then, once it hits wall when I try correcting it oversteers.

I modified the baseline to current test tuning parameters with the equations from the tuning videos. Then started using Steinwand’s tuning guide along with your inputs from these posts.

K Steinwand – In your guide you mention to start on the camber, on to the tires and so forth. As well in the post above you indicate this cars needs a lot of Rear camber. So where do I start range wise for that? Then I can continue to tune the other parameters through a cycle as you mention in the guide. Thanks!

Baseline parameters:
Tires F 30, R 30
Gearing FD 2.20, 2.89/1.99/1.49/1.16/0.94/0.78
Alignment Camber -1.5/0, Toe 0/-0.2, Caster 5.0
ARB F 29.02, R 23.31
Springs 858.8/807.5, RH 6.1/6.1
Rebound 9.3/8.6, Bump 7.0/6.6
Aero 51/194
Brake 50/100
Diff 75/75

Current “test” parameters:
Tires F 29, R 26.5
Gearing FD 2.20, 2.89/1.99/1.49/1.16/0.94/0.78 [ALL SAME for now]
Alignment Camber -1.5/0, Toe 0/-0.2, Caster 5.0 [ALL SAME for now]
ARB F 30.02, R 23.61
Springs 810.8/719, RH 5.6/5.6
Rebound 10.1/9.0, Bump 6.7/6.0
Aero 71/117
Brake 48/85
Diff 70/20

The car (S800) is now sitting at 3,138 lbs (53%) versus before (B600) at 3,939 lbs (57%), thus a big improvement in weight and its distribution. Though it is still heavy!

I have the following settings for the assists:

  1. Line: FULL
  2. Braking: ABS OFF
  3. Steering: Normal
  4. T&SC: OFF
  5. Shifting: Manual w/Clutch
  6. Damage: Cosmetic

This is what I answered in other tuning related thread.I’m not going too technical with it, I check few things from telemetry, things that I cant directly feel, but they affect my speed, and everything else is “butt feel”.

Quote from myself_________________________________________

I tune mostly by “butt feel” Although I’m still tuning only in FM4 as I don’t have FM5 yet. How ever What I have heard from my friends who play FM5, it’s almost same thing so my reply would pretty close to correct answer.

Personally, I start by setting the alignment to somewhat decent figures, Camber and Caster for starters and return later for toe, Then I think a bit of the track is it bumpy (sebring 1st and last corner)
Is it flat (yas marina) Does it have big elevation changes (alps) Do I ride many kerbs (sebring).

For flat track I set the rideheight low and suspension fairly soft. and bump and rebound stiffness fairly stiff (for bump, this is still fairly low we are talking on 2.5-5.0 bump stiffness) Adjust as long as the suspension telemetry gives me only 1 or two red flashes around a lap, and at other times (cornering, running over a kerb, etc) it reaches to this almost.
If its bumpy track where I ride lots of kerbs, go over bigger bumps, etc. I raise that car bit higher, stiffen the suspension a bit, and soften rebound and bump stiffness.
At the end of the day, I’m aiming to set the car so that what ever I do the chassis would go rather smoothly in all conditions, and suspension would work over all the bumps and humps on the road.
I also bring the ARB’s in this. The lower I’m going the stiffer the ARB has to be so that it wouldn’t let the car bottom out in long high speed sweepers (like in indy GP)

Now I set the aero. The aero doesn’t affect too much on low speeds (less than 100kmh/60MPH) but it affects on straights and highspeed corners, To let my car go as fast as possible, on the straight the aero must be low as possible, but when I get to make trough those sweepers as close to full throttle as I can I must set it higher, Therefore I run the corners and adjust accordingly.
If I have to run higher aero profile it gibes more “weight” to the car, so I might have to check again at the suspension, and stiffen it a bit.

Then all the rest what is left here,
Gears, Usually I tend to run sport or stock gearbox, but if I have race gearbox, I tend to set the gears so that I can do 99% of shifting on straights. Then again, you never should shift in corner or right after that, just because it sends always a little pulse (accelerating or decelerating) trough the driveline, which might unsettle the car.
Tire pressure, unless I have adjusted it by now Set it on 33 PSI on hot tires.
Brakes, so that I front and rear lock up at the same time (friction telemetry).

Differental setting have changed so much berween FM4 and FM5 (according to my understanding) that I won’t tell too much about it without testing.
How ever, lower settings helps the car rotating under acceleration and deceleration. While higher setting tend to keep the car going more to a straight line.
You want to floor the throttle as early as possible, and higer setting wants to lock the wheels together, so there would be less wheelspin. How ever, if it locks up too early it will cause you to understeer off the track, or if you had enough power you just cause both tires to lose grip, and that causes oversteer, or complete spinout.
How ever, in FWD cars, you might want fairly high acceleration differential, just to keep you from spinning one tire on acceleration.

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I like your process Juggernaut, seems like a pretty solid practice. Anyways Relaxed, if you want a number for the rear end, I’d start at about -2.0 for camber and start from there. But you changed that car a lot, so before you tune, drive it first to see how it handles now.

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Juggernaut – thank you so much for the insights and your process, this helps me a lot. It’s amazing now that I am focusing on what you, as well as Steinwand, have described by looking at the camber first. I have noticed this changes the feel of the car a significant amount. In addition, these DO NOT agree with some of these technical equations that others are using. I like the technical aspects yet want to make sure it aligns with the feel of the car, and, right now these two do not. Seems I should stick with more “feel” for now. In addition, the process that both of you use is somewhat similar in flow of what to address in what step. (From other readings I’ve done, they tend to focus on tires and aero, then, go to other parameters. One person even mentions in YouTube that Caster is not that important or contributing factor. Yet, I am certainly finding it different and agree with both of you!).

I’ll keep driving, getting the feel, and tweaking little-by-little.

Steinwand - I have done around 10 test drives from the baseline of the new car build (S800), then, landing with the above stated “current”. Yet still having issue. I believe my problem was that I started changing the front camber and not the rear (left at ZERO). I’ll restart from the baseline and just modify the camber and keep testing.

Thanks a lot for all your inputs, it;s certainly appreciated!